And on the back is Adama’s wooden ship! Lets make this happen!
While the Kazon were rather weak villans they were not the worst, my vote for the worst Star Trek villans of all time would have to be the Pakleds (from the TNG episode ‘Samaritan Snare’).
“We look for things that make us go.”
groan Really? :rolleyes:
I think it was totally awesome Chris Hardwick had time to sit down and chat with the crew. I can’t wait for his book to come out it sounds really interesting. This episode was great this guest will be hard to top 
First off, Audrapedia is full of win. Especially in these “General Discussion” casts.
Wow, this Prime Directive arc has brought up so interesting opinions. Time to throw in my two cents. In The Pail Moonlight(DS9 S06E19) is a great example of a major breach of the PD. Also, the best line wasn’t “It’s a fake!”, it was “I can live with it”. If you remember, Picard got in all sorts of trouble just by helping the Klingons to pick a new chancellor. It’s easy to just think of it as a rule for less advanced races.
Lets all remember that this is not some rule made up by some politician in an office who has never traveled to a new planet. Casilda’s call was right on saying that it’s important to have but not a solution for all situations one may come across. When Archer started his mission there was no such thing as the PD. A great episode for this discussion is Dear Doctor(Enterprise S01E13). (First 4 min of this clip)
Archer points out that they need guidelines for dealing with other races, he also points out that it is his compassion that guides his judgement. This is why the PD is created, to protect ourselves as much as it is to protect others. (They have a very similar discussion to what has been brought up here and the podcast about the PD in Pen Pals (STTNG S02E15))
Just as Archer, Kirk and Picard are different captains for different times, so is the PD. It would be silly to think that after all the experiences in the TNG, DS9 and Voy generation that the PD wouldn’t be improved for the 25th century generation. IMO-To argue that the PD is a bad idea or unethical is to miss the point of dozens of episodes specifically on the subject.
We practice non-interference everyday. Do we help every homeless person we see? If we see a child alone do we assume they are lost? If someone only has the means to take public transportation, do we hand them the keys to a car? No…but as we go thru our lives there are situation where a act of compassion can change someone else’s life. Where the change in your pocket could feed someone else’s greed. Where taking 5 minutes to help jump-start a car could end with their picture in the obituaries the next day and you blaming yourself. If you really think about it, Non-interference is probably as pervasive as its ever been in our society. By not interfering are you always following the moral high road? No…but it does help you sleep better at night. 
Ah, I always love a good wooden ship reference.
I can picture it now: a good clipper named USS Penultimate etched in bank gothic on her stern…
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Add: “Just like whatever came between wooden ships and space flight”
I gotta respectfully disagree with you Uchiha and offer a correction here.
Not sure where anyone got the idea that the Prime Directive in Star Trek applied to anything other then less-technologically developed civilizations. And specifically it applies to pre-warp civilizations. That’s my interpretation (though I could be wrong of course (though I will boast I’ve been thinking about this stuff since the 70s ).
And even if that interpretation is wrong, the Prime Directive CERTAINLY does not apply to the covert or overt dealings between powerful space-faring “Empires” like the Federation, the Romulans and Dominion.
DS9’s Pale Moonlight is a great episode but it has absolutely nothing to do with the Prime Directive. And correct me, if I’m wrong, but I don’t think the words Prime Directive are ever uttered in the episodes. Also, DS9 is a great show, but I’m hard pressed to remember ANY episodes of DS9 that touch on Prime Directive issues (I’m sure there must be, but I can think of any.)
I believe the Prime Directive is a good rule for a space faring race to follow. But one exception that I think is valid when that a planet or race is going to die/be-destroyed without interference. If the diversity of life is a value, then to let a civilization die when there’s means to prevent it is wrong.
Interesting thing about Star Trek is that even though the Prime Directive is so important to the Federation, there’s a surprisingly few numbers of episodes that deal with the PD at all. And those that do often do it in some skewed, oblique way —dealing with special cases and exceptions.
There’s very few that approach the PD in a straightforward way.
I’m SO glad that Audra discussed the TNG episode Who Watches the Watchers. To me that’s the poster-child Prime Directive episodes and one of my favorites. But even that episode isn’t just about the PD. It’s about the dangers of superstition and believing in a god-like being. Picard literally risks his life in the episode in support of the Prime Directive.
This sequence in the briefing room with Picard talking to the woman from the primitive Vulcan-like planet— one of my favorite scenes in all of Star Trek. I don’t know why, but it’s so moving to me. Especially when Picard says under his breath.“…Of that I have absolutely no doubt.”
Here’s two Star Trek episodes that address the Prime Directive—all worthy of discussion.
ST TNG “First Contact” (not to be confused with the Movie of the same name.)
This is episode is a pure first contact mission, Picard and Troi beam down and literally make first contact to a race that’s deemed ready to enter the Federation.
http://www.startrek.com/database_article/first-contact
ST Voyager “Prime Factors”
In this episode the roles are reversed. Voyager encounters a race that has technology that will help the Voyager crew get home (or close to home). But these beings have their own version of the Prime Directive and refuse to share technology with the less advanced Star Fleet.
http://www.startrek.com/database_article/prime-factors
And here’s a couple ST Enterprise episodes that encounter Prime Directive-ish issues in a time before the Federation and the Prime Directive was conceived of.
ST Enterprise “Strange New World”. Enterprise encounters its first new untouched world. And Archer boldly goes to explore it, though T”Pol warns caution.
Porthos the dog being let to run free on the planet was such a cool moment and so illustrative of the innocence of the Archer-era. Poop on the planet indeed.
http://www.startrek.com/database_article/strange-new-world
ST Enterprise “The Communicator” Nice call back to the ep of TOS when McCoy left his communicator behind on a planet by mistake. Archer goes out of his way to recover the a lost communicator. T’Pol is impressed with Archers willingness to risk his life to do so.
http://www.startrek.com/database_article/communicator-the
I would like to add my support/agreement with what ThotFullGuy just said.
I just want to add some other ideas about why the Prime Directive was created.
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You don’t know what the biology of the society is. Lets say they find a race if inteligent Praying mantisis. The female kills and eats the male during mating. Do we try to stop them because they are comitting murder and canibalism on a regular basis? We are used to seeing the cultures of Star Trek as human because they are humans with heavy makeup on their noses and foreheads, so it’s hard to know what kind of damage you are doing to a race by changing them.
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It prevents FedMineCo from buying the local real estate for a handful of beads.
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A captain is a representative of the Federation. As such he can commit the Federation to a course of actions that the Federation doesn’t want to go in. So the rule is set up so that a captain’s default action is to do nothing and step away. If a captain does that and things go bad, the captain won’t be in trouble. On the other hand if the captain does go in and interfers with the low tech society, he’d better have a REALLY good reason to drag the Federation in, because now the Federation now has to either support the decision with resources, OR they have to undo the damage the captain did.
I was thinking the same thing at first but after some rewatching and reading discussions elsewhere on the net, I changed my mind. We don’t have to hear the words PD to know the situation falls under its jurisdiction. Also, in Voyager, it’s mentioned that there are 47 sub orders that we really have no idea of what they are. I would say any time the word “interfere” is uttered in regards to another race it would apply. There are several episodes where Picard is deeply involved in Klingon politics and he mentions that Starfleet is not happy with it. Sisco’s role as the Emissary is another example of breaking non-interference with a post warp society. Janeway misses several chances to gain tech that might get them back faster due to the PD. As I said, the 24th century PD is not the same as the 23rd century one and it most certainly includes all races that are not members of the Federation.
I would like to add that it is the discussion that is the most important part of this arc. To think that any of us are totally correct would be silly, especially considering the PD is a plot device in a fictional TV show. You said, “though I will boast I’ve been thinking about this stuff since the 70s :D”. I would suggest each of our opinions are going to be different due to this fact. Where your view is probably most informed by TOS, mine is probably from TNG and others may be from a later series. In the Pail Moonlight is not a great example of the PD and its focus on the moral implications is IMO what makes it so great. Sisco is so desperate for any type of victory in that war he is willing to go to any lengths. The PD was the least of his concerns but that doesn’t mean it is inapplicable.
I was just watching those clips in your above post.
I’d forgotten about that scene in Enterprise’s Dear Doctor. Great stuff. Love the “PD in pre-PD era” discussion between Phlox and Archer there. Phlox’s point about “what if an alien race had give Earth’s Neanderthals a technology that allowed it to dominate over our human ancestors.”
Pen Pals, also a great PD episode–the TNG senior officers litterally sitting and discussing the application of the Prime Directive in this case. As I said earlier, that kind of situation is one where I do think the PD can be ignored. If that whole planet’s people are gonna die, then why not help them? Gets me thinking though. I can’t believe Star Fleet would not have a set policy for that kind of situation already in place. Seems unrealistic that they’d be discussing it without any prior situations to refer to (I know. I know. It’s just a TV show Thot :o ).
I’m a little bothered in Pen Pals about how they refer to things like a Cosmic Plan in their debate about the Prime Directive. Seems (in my opinion) unworthy of a sci show to get into such nonsense.
But anyway, thanks for sharing those chips. Both excellent PD episodes.
I do still disagree with you about DS9 Pale Moonlight. I maintain that it’s waay off-topic to the Prime Directive debate. Eh, but I don’t know why I get so caught up with words and definitions (maybe because I’m a NERD ).
Same here. It’s interstellar politics (aka “Frak your neighbor”). Since it was about the Romulans’ policy on how they were dealing with the Federation, instead of their internal affairs, the PD wouldn’t apply.
On internal affairs (such as supporting Damar’s rebels or picking a side in the Klingon civil war), it’s more debatable, but I still think that the Prime Directive doesn’t apply to anyone the Federation has diplomatic ties with or is at war with. A different set of policies would apply to not interfering in internal politics of other star nations.
Again another great discussion. I agree with some of the above sentiments that the episodes discussed in the last 'cast may not have been the best examples of the PD in action. Many of those dealt with issues of interstellar politics which is clearly not the same as meddling with less advanced cultures. However, I now find myself taking a middle ground between what UD and Thot express above. In principal the PD is absolute and the Federation should avoid interfering with internal matters of ALL societies, however the issue becomes a bit more muddy as A) you’ve established diplomatic relations, and B) the societies are on par with the Feds technologically and are potential rivals. To break down my opinions on the matter a bit:
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Prewarp societies unaware of other life in the galaxy: the PD should be absolute allowing no interference. I am even torn on the issue of surreptitiously studying them. Clearly the duck blind method in Who Watches the Watchers was kind of silly and risky. How they got that grant proposal through their Institutional Review Board is beyond me.
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Early warp societies: the Feds can take on a diplomatic/advisory role, but should avoid tech transfer and interference in internal matters until either A) they want to join the Fed or B) they become adversarial to the Fed.
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Societies of comparable technology: Meddling with internal affairs should be avoided, however needs of self-preservation of Fed society can be considered.
Now another difficulty is that it’s difficult to figure out general rules from watching individual ST episodes because writers are willing to break the PD (what is Chuck’s saying for as plot requires?) in pursuit of a different interesting allegory. This seems to particularly be the case in the OS episode previously discussed where the two factions had generated a completely sanitized form of war. Clearly this is meant as an allegory for issues that were developing during the Cold War and Vietnam but would be a story that couldn’t be told if the writers stuck to a strict adherence to the PD.
I recently heard a modern example that kind of pertains to the issue of interfering to save a prewarp society from natural disaster. Currently, many of the native species of the Galapagos Islands are under threat of extinction due to man-made threats and the introduction of exotic species. However, the scientific organization that oversees the Galapagos has a strict rule about not letting individual species off of the islands for breeding purposes. The fear is that if a few of the more charismatic species are saved (i.e., tortoises, finches etc.) then there will be less interest in trying to preserve the unique ecosystem as a whole. Recently a plant just went extinct after they denied a researcher a chance to move some to their lab to keep it going. Was it the correct decision? I really don’t know, but I do agree that the larger picture of preserving the Islands in as close to their native state as possible should be of utmost concern. So I have a hard time seeing how a society at risk could be preserved in a way that properly maintains its cultural/biological uniqueness and limit impacts on other planets or ecosystems. Actually, I guess the TNG episode Inner Light is one way. Another way would be to terraform from a new lifeless planet. But, ah, terraforming opens up a whole new can of worms. Come to think of it, the TNG first season episode Ugly Bags of Mostly Water (can’t remember the actual title) is also very relevant to a PD arc.
I want to express my thanks… sometimes there are some pretty wonderful people who expose the rest of us to some unique ideas that continue to spawn new generations of creative and thoughtful people - thanks again Gene Rodenberry and thank you GWC!
Any and all book recommendations are always welcome! Don’t feel badly for recommending non-sci-fi, we’re a pretty geeky group (and I, for one, enjoy reading many different kinds of books)
I think part of where Thot and Starsaber are coming from (and I apologize if I am misrepresenting here) is the idea that the PD is a) absolute and b) only applies to certain kinds of interactions, that is, when the Federation encounters “lesser” civilizations.
I (and I think UD?) are of the mind that the PD has been applied in the various series not only to those situations, but also in what can be termed (and some of you have mentioned) as diplomatic situations - the Romulans aren’t part of the Federation, nor are the Kazon, the Borg, Species 8472, the Bajorans, the Cardassians, the Dominion… part of what I find fascinating about DS9 is that it shows us a bit more grittily the bureaucracy of the Federation, that is, what are the mechanics for a world becoming part of the Federation, and would that be an unmitigated good for everyone involved in the process? What are the Maquis rebelling against (and in some cases, like in a number of episodes listed here, the viewer is prompted to consider that they are in fact fighting for a just cause… against the Federation)?
I think part of our disagreements (which are totally legitimate, and interesting!) stem from an urge to see the Federation as a utopian society in which things are always done well. As the canon expands, however, we see more and more situations in which the Federation isn’t necessarily perfect, or justified, or in some cases even good (think of all those bad Admirals). Like I said when I called (and I apologize for the scratchy voice), the Prime Directive is great in theory - but in practice things like real world alert Rwanda and Darfur happen, and Non-Interference is not always the best, or most moral, stance to take.
In defense of looking at In the Pale Moonlight (which I think may be my favorite Trek episode, EVAH!) in the light of the PD, even though the Federation is literally at war with the Dominion, Sisko and Garak are fundamentally interfering with Romulan internal politics, or rather, their domestic policy. If we’re going to read the PD as only applying to “lesser” development (still a concept with which I am uncomfortable - and I’m not convinced that every culture or civilization needs to develop along the same line), then it wouldn’t apply. However, the text itself tells us that “no Starfleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture,” and only later discusses technological advancement in particular. To Starfleet, the Romulans are still alien life and culture - and Sisko is most definitely interfering. Additionally, in play are many of the other issues that we have been discussing with regards to fair intervention, development, and power.
An interesting example dealing with interference/non-interference that isn’t Star Trek is CJ Cherryh’s Foreigner series (the most recent of which just came out!). In it, a group of humans from Earth live on another world in which a less-technologically developed species, the atevi, are native to. They’ve also managed to whip the humans in a war, and confined them to an island. There is a translator-diplomat that rations out bits and pieces of technological progress to the atevi, and the main characters in the series deal with the factions among humans who resent the atevi, and factions among what I have found to be one of the most truly alien cultures I have read about. Obviously, non-interference hasn’t really happened here. However, there are groups who wish for non-interference (though that cat’s out of the bag), resort to violence to try to push back time, as well as groups that push ever forward technologically, even to the point where the atevi surpass humanity. It’s an interesting exploration, and I’d recommend it to any and all.
I agree that In the Pail Moonlight is a not a good PD episode. My point is that I believe we have ample evidence to conclude it is applicable.
This is a great video that discusses the PD. He is very funny and well spoken. He debates the pros and cons while interweaving ST clips. He also has episode reviews that I am really enjoying.
The episode Phil mentioned is Home Soil. IMO this is also not a good PD episode. We could say they broke the PD, but that was long before they even knew any life was there. As soon as they found the “microbrain” to be alive they resolved the conflict and left.
A great episode I haven’t heard mentioned is TOS - S02E23 - Patters of Force. The Enterprise seeks out a historical researcher with whom the Federation has lost contact, and discovers he has contaminated a culture, remaking it into a near-duplicate of Nazi Germany. This is what can happen even with the best intentions.
The TNG - S05E17 - The Outcast has been mention before in the forum/cast in regards to gender and/or sexual orientation. Riker is willing to violate the PD for the sake of one person which is a bit different from the other discussions so far. Enterprise - S02E22 - Cogenitor is very similar to The Outcast except for taking place pre-PD. Is a personal relationship worth more then the societal beliefs of another race?
Voyager - S01E03 - Time and Again - The Voyager crew discovers a planet which recently suffered a horrific catastrophe. Upon investigation, Janeway and Paris are sent back in time before the disaster and are faced with the decision of whether to try to stop it. What is the point of the PD if it can be broken before you interfere? This is probably a better one for Time Travel but could make for interesting discussions.
On another note - There has been far too little discussion about the merits of a MILF’s in Star Trek arc. We could talk about how frakkin cool Worf is for having a MILF only policy. :groucho: How Odo engineered the shuttle-craft accident to get Kira on the MILF list. :oops:
I’d think that whether the Romulans join the war with the Dominion or not would be foreign policy, not domestic policy. Of course, I can also think of a few times where the Federation has interfered in domestic issues without the Prime Directive coming up, namely the Klingon Civil War (TNG) and supporting Damar’s rebellion.
Ooh, just thought of another one. Worf deposing Gowron and making Martok chancellor would be more of an internal issue that could be interpreted the same way.
Very well said. I like those points.
No I don’t think the Prime Directive of the 23rd century and 24th are different.
They’re following the same rule. Was it said anywhere that it changed?
In Stargate the gates are round. If they all the sudden were square in an episode, I would expect it to be commented on it.
Agreed. I think there’s so confusion about “interference” as a generic term and the Prime Directive specifically.
I think that the Prime Directive was always thot of by Roddenberry as applying to pre-warp civilizations— or to put it more generically: significantly less technologically advanced civilizations.
Agreed. Here here.
The topic of generically “interfering” is a separate and more broad topic than the Prime Directive. In Star Trek the Prime Directive is a specific thing just as must as a phaser or a warp engine is a specific defined thing. (Although, yeah, it’s a TV show and they can and are inconsistent about terms sometimes).
I’m having trouble with the Prime Directive term being thrown around and applied Willy Nillly (That’s right Chris Hardwick, I said Will Nilly just like you )
Yes! Patterns of Force - A great PD episode.
One weird thing about ST TOS is that there are times when they break the PD and make no reference or mention of it. There’s a lot of cases of that–in other series too.
Unfortunately the primary Star Trek MILF — Dr. Beverly Crusher is off limits to my imagination.
Reason is cuz she’s got the same first name as my mom, so it’s too icky. :eek:
(sigh). Well, wikipedia is certainly not always right, but it makes this statement which contradicts my point above. Gods damnit!
By the time of the era of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the Prime Directive was indicated to apply not only to just pre-warp civilizations, but to any culture with whom Starfleet comes into contact. In such situations, the Prime Directive forbids any involvement with a civilization without the expressed consent or invitation of the lawful leaders of that society, and absolutely forbids any involvement whatsoever in the internal politics of a civilization. This understanding of the Prime Directive resembles the concept of Westphalian sovereignty in political science.