George R. R. Martin’s got an achingly beautiful short story called The Ice Dragon with a female protagonist.
That was great! Thanks for posting.
The upredictable parts far outweighed the predictable parts.
Two dragon stories, one I like and the other I don’t. Let’s get the bad one out of the way first.
I’m reading “Touched by Venom” with some friends, to mock whenever we finally get around to starting up our book discussion podcast. It’s… not good. I first found out about it on on a fandom mockery site (NSFW for language, links in that link are DEFINITELY NSFW for language) years ago when the author threw a hissy-fit because people didn’t like it. The point of the book is that dragons are used as a metaphor for how colonialsm and the oppression of women are bad things, but both of these would have been better handled by someone with a subtler hand. As it is, there comes a point where after so many bad things happen to the main characters that it becomes funny, and things are just weird. I won’t even go into it here, but trust me, it’s weird.
The one that I like has a dragon at the beginning of the story, but then he doesn’t show up again until the end. “Blue Moon Rising” by Simon R. Green starts off with a prince sent off to rescue a princess from a dragon–but nobody expects him to succeed. Really, they just want the dragon to eat the troublesome second son who managed to not die of the plague or something and is now in danger of causing problems in the line of succession. And then he finally gets to the dragon, and… well, he kind of has to rescue the dragon from the princess. The story gets more awesome from there, and I love the series that it’s tied to (Hawk & Fisher) even more.
Okay, three things:
Dragonslayer. Hadn’t seen this before (until yesterday), and went into it expecting a B-movie— cheezy but enjoyable. But, I ended up really impressed by everything about it. The movie was very well made, well shot, well edited—really moved along at the right pace. Special effects were pretty amazing considering the time and they still worked even watching it now in this age of CGI.
TSR D&D Dragons– So cooled that Sean and Chuck mentioned TSR dragons. Like you Chuck, my first real dive into the dragon world (aside from Tolkein books) was playing paper and dice Dungeons & Dragon. Loved the many different times of dragons the game gave stats for including alignment— Lawful good gold and platinum dragons, red dragons (chaotic evil?) that breath fire, blue dragons that shoot lightening bolts, green dragons (chaotic neutral) that breath chlorine gas.
The ongoing characters in D&D we played the for the longest run were cavilers (mounted knights in armor). And we were always slaying dragons right and left. My friend Gary the Dungeonmaster had a gorgeous collection of painted metal D&D figures and his dragons (a red, a black and a gold I think) were absolutely beautiful and added so much fun to the game.
My character Duke Matthew had an intelligent sword named Gilean which helped slay many a dragon (not to mention orcs, ogres, enemy cavilers from the south, demons, devils …you name it).
Joseph Campbell – Like you Audra, this talk of dragons totally made me think of Joeseph Campbell’s many references to dragons in “Hero with a thousand faces” and “The Power of Myth”.
The dragon, psychologically can be a symbol of negative feelings that hold you back. In a standard western dragon tale, a dragon hordes piles of treasure that he can’t use, and perhaps captures a maiden that is of no use to him except to posses as he does the treasure.
Love the arc, and would love to hear more about other’s tabletop Dungeons and Dragons experiences.
That said, the original trilogy (which I think is now packaged as an omnibus Dragonriders of Pern, combining Dragonflight, Dragonquest, and The White Dragon) has some really cringe-worthy moments in terms of gender relations (as an adult I can’t enjoy the Lessa-F’lar stuff anymore, it seems so emotionally abusive), but I LOVE the Harper Hall stuff, and some of the newer books have better gender politics. Also, the stuff that deals with the arrival of humans on Pern (and which really blur towards science fiction) starting with Dragonsdawn has better relations. Plus it talks about the development of the dragons, which are cool 
They were using a sophisticated stop motion system, called go motion. The models were rigged to move as each frame was shot, which gave them the blur of motion.
Awesome cast guys, esp. Sean. I totally started as a fantasy guy, and down the road it was the Dragonlance books that really linked the genre back to the PnP D&D stuff I was into at the time. From there it was a quick descent into the Forgotten Realms… In fact, if you wanted to interview Weiss & Hickman as the finishing touch to the arc, it wouldn’t hurt my feelings :eek:
One part of this cast really triggered something, and it was the discussion around negotiating with a dragon, and it immediately made me think of the first book in the Shadowrun Series Never Deal with a Dragon. (Okay, book 00 was an anthology, but who’s counting)
If you’ve never ventured into the Shadownrun books, and you like Fantasy / D&D and Cyberpunk, with a bit of steampunk, and think that mashing them all together in the year 2050 would be frackkin’ sweet, and you don’t mind some pretty light & quick reading (about the same as Forgotten Realms) then I recommend checking them out.
Re: Negotiating with dragons :: Start with the premise that dragons are older, wiser and more cunning that you can comprehend, and tend to play for the long run. Now combine that with the stereotypical draconic desire to accumulate insane amounts of wealth. Now make a dragon the CEO of a global conglomerate (in a cyberpunk setting) that isn’t worried about using whatever means it takes. You get the picture
12 years! TWELVE Years!! That is how long I have been hearing talk about Ghostbusters 3! I am not going to get my hopes up (again) only to have them destroyed (again!). Until I see the trailer, this is not happening.
(That was back before I knew how Hollwood worked, and I thought if they said there were making a movie they actually would.)
Never Deal With A Dragon was just an awesome, in fact so is the entire Shadowrun premise. If you want a fairly serious SF take on dragons - with one going for President, and the repercussions there of - check out the Shadowrun series.
Awesome cast, and the dragon section was BA. All the different kinds of dragons are scattered all over, and I rarely think of them in terms of their separate groups.
All this wizarding and fantasy talk is making me want to pull out my old Earthsea books. Ursula LeGuin’s one of the few writers out there who truly seems just as capable in Fantasy as she in Sci-Fi.
Audra, I appreciate your retraction - and I find it interesting that your favorite Enterprise character is my favorite Enterprise character gotta love the Vulcans!
I adore Ursula LeGuin so very much. I could count the ways, but I think it would be boring for all of you to read. And if you can believe it, Earthsea was for me the least engaging of her work…
… aw now I want to go read The Dispossessed 
I loved The Dispossessed. That is all. Carry on.
Hey Sean, have you ever seen any seen the book “Discovery of Dragons” by Graeme Base? My mom bought me this book when I was young and I have very fond memories of it. The artwork is amazing and the stories are pretty funny. Its separated into three stories, each representing a different region (Nordic, Asian, and Tropical) and the dragons that live there. Each story is told in letters or journal entries and gives “first-hand” accounts of the dragons.
Apparently there is a new version of the book called “Discovery of Dragons: New Research Revealed.” I have not seen this one, but I love the original.
Here’s a shot of the cover of the original.
And here’s a shot from inside the book. This is the Nordic story and is told by a Viking, which is why the text looks like runes.
Someone should post this poll somewhere on the forum (I don’t know how to)
- Green Standard Dragon
- Black Dragon
- Dragon Riders / War Dragons
- Sea Dragon / Sea Serpent
- Chinese Dragon / Asian Dragon
- Deamon Dragon
- Draculid Dragon
- Familiars Dragon
- Magestic Dragon
- Specialty Dragon
- Half Dragon / Hybrid Dragon
- Wyvern Dragon
~Shooter Out
Oh, and our local “A” Professional Baseball team (Cincinnati Reds feeder system)?
The Dayton Dragons
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/index.jsp?sid=t459
~Shooter Out
…aaaand it’s in my cart at audible!
Thanks!! xoxo!!
The Wyvern hate is so not cool
Wow, great illustrations. I kind of want the book just based on aesthetics.
Thanks for the recommendation. I’m going to get right on that one (so I don’t feel bad for having neglected dragons in my sci fi reading, and I’d like to get into it on the right foot so I don’t get instantly turned off by the abundance of possibly useless maidens. :D)
ETA: Re: Sea Serpents/Sea Dragons. Would the Loch Ness Monster (and the stories) be considered dragon-related folklore?
Wonderful interview, Chuck.
Great dragon segment, Sean.
Audra, you got me thinking about Campbell. Please see below.
Love the “It’s been a long road” gag.
Burninating the countryside. Burninating the peasants!!
A bulk of Joseph Campbell’s work was on Comparative mythology. The theory is that many cultures across the globe share the same themes and concepts in myths because it is the unconscious mind expressing itself. Or something like that. Point is, we’re all human and we share similar experiences.
For example, in ‘The Power of Myth’ Campbell says the Dragon represents transcendence, moving from one state to another. Whether you slay the dragon or ride/befriend the dragon, you have moved to a higher state of being. You have faced and defeated your fears or demons, embraced your inner potential. The dragon represents all of that. It is an extension of yourself, your dreams and nightmares.
That being said, here are my thots on ‘Dragonslayer’. We have a corrupt King who uses any means to subjugate. The dragon is that means. In a real life situation the dragon could represent slavery or taxation or an army or a WMD. The people live in fear and apathy, unable to remedy their situation. “This is just how it is.” Meanwhile the King continues to manipulate the populace.
In the end, they defeated the vehicle of their pain, not the driver. The true villain in this is the King and hypocrisy. Their situation does not change much once the dragon is vanquished. I couldn’t help but focus on the Crue’s comments about the use of Christianity in this film. As one of the characters mentioned, “A holy man came and the dragon was defeated.” These people are ripe to fall under the ruse of theocracy. No doubt the King will now replace the dragon with religion to maneuver his will on the people.
This film could be viewed as a parable to reveal the guile of Power in any form and its obstruction to freedom and charity. It’s sadly ironic that religion, especially Christianity, plays a role in political influence and power. There is no doubt why it receives justified criticism when many of its members and leadership do not practice what they preach.