Spot on, Audra. That’s exactly why I stand by Roslin. Even though I might not agree with every one of her decisions (the abortion issue is a perfect example, as is the whole baby Hera fiasco), I realize that she works from a desire to do right by the RTF and humanity as a whole.
If there’s one thing that stands out about BSG in general is the concept of moral ambiguity in the face of extenuating circumstances. It’s one of the main draws for me as a fan of the series, as it forces the viewer to question not only the characters and their motivations, but by extension the viewer’s own convictions or values. Both the Old Man and Roslin are the main vehicles for this type of ethical prodding on the part of the writers, Laura more so than Bill, I think.
That being said, as I watched the election episodes, and the prospect of New Caprica loomed large, I remember thinking to myself that it would be kinda cool if, through purely self-serving actions, Baltar managed to get elected and somehow lead the RTF to a successful and happily Cylon-free colonization of New Caprica, in counterpoint to Laura, who had made so many missteps in the name of doing what’s right for the RTF. Obviously, that would have been kinda boring, and as soon as Lay Down Your Burdens’ One Year Later epilogue rolled around, we got to see exactly how much of a disaster President Baltar turned out to be, Cylons or no Cylons. . . .
It’s interesting that you bring this up now, on the eve of Razor. I’ve broken down and watched it (but I’ll STFU about spoilers here, this isn’t the thread for that), and the biggest thing I took away from it (from a character development standpoint, at least) is the same concept of hard choices in the face of extenuating circumstances applied to Helena Cain, albeit in a slightly different context.
Can I ask that we officially table all abortion debate vis a vis BSG?
This keeps coming up as a ‘flaw’ in Rosalin’s character, that she a) sold out her morals to the religious minority or b) she sold out all the women under her care. The problem I have with b is that not everyone believes that abortion is a human right. Some believe that abortion is murder. Heck some believe that it is acceptable unless it’s a late term abortion. Some believe that it should be allowed up to the moment of delievery. Some believe… you get the idea.
“The Right to an Abortion” is not what we at my school call a “Core Democratic Value” simply because we cannot all agree on it’s value. Everytime it comes up here, it seems as though it’s a forgone conclusion that every woman has this right. Maybe she does; maybe she don’t, but the jury is not (and probably never will be) back on that issue.
There are plenty enough issues to debate regarding the morality of characters, but it strikes me as overdone to point at her outlawing of abortion as a clear cut “crime against humanity” as Sean called it.
Now if you’re going after her “waffling” on the issue with the appearance of pandering to the zealots… well… maybe she was just being practical about the state of the human race.
Well said Audra! I totally agree with you that her decisions, good or bad, are made with the survival of the human race as her primary concern and goal.
Audra you are most certainly entitled (as are we all) to your opinion about Roslin. However given your posting about her, I feel I must come to the defense of democracy!!!
You bring up Colonial Day; unless I am mistaken her position was never in jeopardy (not counting the possibility of assassination). Zarek was trying to get a vice president elected and to get himself in said VP position. So after Colonial day her presidency still legal but no she was certainly not elected.
Now yes I go agree they made the right decision getting away with the ships that were FLT capable and leaving the other ships to be destroyed, where the mistake was (and not hers alone possibly) was by not getting those people off of the ships at the first chance they had. Instead Roslin took a tour of the ships and left those poor people to their doom. Even if all of them could not be save, some could have been.
As for Admiral Cain, Roslin had her own security force; we saw them when Adama staged a coup. It looked as if Adama, Cain and Roslin were alone in office on Colonial one. She right there could have used her legal authority to remove Roslin from her position and used her security force to hold Cain. Had Starbuck shot Cain on the CIC, I highly doubt that then Colonel Fisk (or whomever would have taken command given Fisk was on the Galactica at the time) would have handed the ship over to Adama and may have even fired on the Galactia. In other words, that plan would have possibly and likely would have backfired.
She tired, and in fact did steal an election. Only allowing Baltar to rise to the Presidency after she was found out by Adama, do I have to say any more? There is a difference in believing in free and open elections. And in believing you are supposed to lead and then doing what you need to say in power, right or wrong. This goes along with the abortion issue. To coin a phrase, actions speak louder than words. She says she believes in one thing, and then does another when it suits her.
No she is not responsible for Baltar’s action, even if she put in the position to run for the presidency. However I still maintain that Baltar is the legal president. For those who have never read my logic on this here it is.
After the “second Exodus” they thought Baltar had died. That is confirmed when they find out he is still alive and they express surprise. Zarek becomes president of a false pretense. We also know the Quorum never removed Baltar because “President Zarek” comments to that they need to elect a new Quorum. President Zarek nominated Roslin as Vice President and then resigned. But he was never the legal president to do so. Her back room deal house of cards falls apart with the fact Baltar survived. I also would like to add that Baltar wasn’t found guilty of any of the charges against him. You cannot argue that he lost his “elected” position from committing treason.
Anyways, I do respect all opinions about Dictator Rosling and enjoy debating the issues on her.
Thanks, Cavatar.
Paid for by people to elect someone other than Laura Roslin, who has never been elected herself.
The problem with tabling the discussion is that this issue was directly relevant to Baltar’s victory. It was the divisive issue that allowed him to stand out as a truly viable candidate and the “rational” alternative to Laura Roslin. No matter how we as individuals in the non-BSG world feel about abortion, Roslin’s decision to outlaw it was the beginning of her political defeat.
Okay, we need to differentiate between democratic and legal governmental mechanisms.
Roslin’s ascending to President of the Colonies was not democratic in the sense that there was no popular vote, no electoral college, no legislative influence. It was, however, legal because of the law establishing the line of succession for the Presidency of the Colonies.
My argument has never, to the best of my knowledge, been that Roslin’s Presidency is illegal - because it is not. The stance that I’ve always taken is that Roslin’s Presidency is undemocratic. Furthermore, since the legitimacy of a Presidency relies on election by the people of a republic, either directly or indirectly, I can safely assert that Roslin is not a legitimate President.
FYI, I’m not sure there’s a word for BSG’s form of government. It’s incredibly unique, and being a political science nerd, I often find myself drooling over the politics and political science involved within the show.
No, you’re right about that. She never did actively oppose the Presidential elections to the best of my knowledge. The reason for this is fairly simple - no politician would risk openly opposing democracy. Being, or seeming like you have been, democratically elected makes your rule seem legitimate - and as I said, political authority derives from legitimacy.
That’s why Roslin, Tigh, Tory and the rest, were going to rig the election instead of opening opposing Baltar’s right to campaign. If Gaius had lost in a democratic, or what seemed to be a democratic election, The Fleet would have totally accepted her further Presidency as legitimate.
You’ve got me there. Do I think Roslin’s a legitimate leader? No, I really don’t. Do I think she’s the best person for the job? Damn right she is. Roslin may not be a democratically elected leader, and I think that needs to change, but is there anyone who could do a better job? Probably not. We’ve all seen the blunders of one Gaius Baltar and one Tom Zarek, and frankly, I think that’s all we need to prove that Laura Roslin is the finest candidate for the job.
DTLOK, good points, and well made. I suppose what bothers me is that there seems to be some prevailing thought that Roslin doesn’t deserve to be president since she is not an elected official. But, in the U.S. government anyway, there are people much higher up in the line to the presidency than the Secretary of Education (I think that was Roslin’s position).
The American Secretary of State, who is an appointed/confirmed official and NOT a democratically elected one, is fourth in line to the U.S. presidency. In the event that the Secretary of State were to legally become president, I doubt she would receive as much flak as Laura Roslin keeps getting. Perhaps it is that people feel Roslin is unqualified for the job, or that they disagree with her decisions, which is fine - but she should not be criticized for accepting the role that was (legally, as you’d say ) thrust upon her.
While I completely respect your arguments, I would still argue that Roslin is a legitimate president, in that she’s rightfully and legally in the role she’s supposed to be in. Even in democracies (especially democratic republics), not everyone is elected by “the people.” And in extreme circumstances like the one in BSG, sticking with political law/precedent and allowing Roslin to fulfill her term before having another election was probably the only realistic choice. Uprooting the colonial government, one of the only remnants of order save the military holding the fleet together, is surely not a priority for people who need clear-headed leadership to survive long enough that they can start contemplating personal freedom again. I’m not arguing that they should relinquish freedoms, but that the aftermath of a near-complete genocide of humanity is not the time to oust a legal (and competent) leader in favor of a preferable one who’s democratically elected. In short, they did what they had to do, and it turned out to be the right thing.
I would agree with you about that her presidency in the first two seasons and the mini-series is legal. As much as I disapprove of some her “executive” decisions I do not argue that she at that point is not the legal president of the Colonies.
The legality of her presidency in the third and fourth season is a different matter entirely.
Paid for by people to elect someone other than Laura Roslin, who has never been elected herself.
Yeah, Roslin’s presidency was legally solid until the third season. All of a sudden during the exodus from New Caprica, she hijacked Colonial One, set her journals on the desk, and re-appointed herself president. Am I glad she did? Absolutely. But yeah, that was kind of an end run. . . .
However, given Apollo’s closing monologue on the witness stand at Baltar’s trial, towards the end of S3, and the intimations of a return to the ‘dying leader’ role in S4, I don’t think the RTF is going to be too uncomfortable with the unorthodox circumstances surrounding Roslin’s return to power. It’s gonna be interesting to see how Jesus Baltar fares against Roslin, but this time on the religious arena.
Totally agreed! I’ve avoided arguing the legitimacy of her presidency into Season 3 because, well, it’s just pretty shady. I admit to liking Roslin so much as a character that I’ve quietly muttered to myself that writers are “doing her wrong” when they have her make the Back Room Deal to resume her presidency.
I’ve gotta say, though, after all the craaap everyone went through, even if Roslin and Zarek did make a shady, OK, wrong deal, to get back in power, I’m sure glad she’s in that chair and not Baltar.
Frak, I’d forgotten about the back room deal! Been a while since I’ve watched the beginning of S3. . . . But yeah, my point still holds. It’s shady as all hell, but in the end, the RTF has the leader it needs, so it’s all good in my book.
As an aside (and I’m sure this has been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere), I’ve always tended to question the assumption that a representative democracy is the most appropriate form of government for the RTF in particular. As a political junkie, one of the things I would have liked to see the show go into is the political workings of the RTF. Colonial Day was an interesting and promising foray into this territory.
I like the woman, I don’t approve of her but I like her, I think many of morally questionable things can be considered at least by me as necessary, leaving there ships without FTL drives, was reasonable, destroying the ship (Can’t remember the name but it was in the first episode.” Again it was reasonable, even the abortion issue when the Human species is literally on the edge of extinction it could be reasonable. But for me it was Leobin, She condoned torture and murder of prisoner of war, now maybe if she was doing it to directly protect the fleet from disaster, I could rationalize it but it wasn’t. And I just can’t get past it, not for her, not for Adama or for starbuck.
I will take small issue with the fact that her decisions are from a desire to do what she believes is best for her people. Maybe so but how many leader before, think they are doing what is best for there people even when they do monstrous things. In the end those decisions should be bound by law, as well as the leaders will. Take for example Cain she did what she believed was best for her crew, but she did all together bad and illegal things in that belief. and that is when you cross the line, and as I see it Roslin’s Very close to it.
All that being said I like her I think she’s done a good job accept for the odd occasion when she snatches baby’s and plan’s genocides. But I still like this woman, and I’m not sure why, but I do. and when compairing her with Baltar she does look like peach.
Granted, Roslin has done some questionable things on her non-elected watch(es). BUT, consider this: If straight arrows like Roslin and Adama can drift off the path, into shifty – if not shady – behavior, then think about what Baltar might have done in the name of expediency, convenience, and self-interest. Besides collaborate with the Cylons, get all hopped up, and have private parties with some of the galaxy’s few remaining cocktail waitresses and supermodels.
It’s easy to criticze from the bench. If you’re not making mistakes, you’re not doing much.
Roslin should have Doxies as well (well Male doxies can you have a male doxie are they called something different maybe a Moxies) I mean Baltar did and so should she its only fair some one should really start a petition.
But seriously you make a good point. its Easy to judge hard to do
but Its late and I’m punch drunk so this is the best I can do right now:o
I agree with Audra. Roslin’s pre-New Caprica decisions are made with the best interests of the people at heart. A lot of the decisions she has to make are really tough calls in which none of the solutions is very comfortable, so even if while I’m watching the episode and doing the equivalent of Sunday Morning Quarterbacking with the presidency, thinking that I might have done something differently, I respect the decisions she makes because they’re logical, reasonable, and done to help the people.
On a side note, I’ve always found it funny that the one decision that was the least logical, her asking Kara to hijack the Raider and go back to Caprica based on scripture, is not one that gets questioned very often. Maybe because it turned out that she was right? Or maybe, since the scriptures seem to have real-life application in the BSG universe, it actually was a logical call.
Nickname Boomer, I think you point to Roslin’s one big blind spot: Cylons’ “human rights.” From our perspective as viewers, the Cylons are a very diverse group, with some that are bloodthirsty and callous (Cavil), some that are nuts (Leoben), and with some like Athena and Caprica Six that actually seem to be, for lack of a better word, human, in every way that matters (except for mortality, since they can download). We’ve seen this diversity, know that the Cylons have the capacity to change, and recognize that some Cylons, including Boomer, Athena, and Caprica Six, have at the very least considered changing sides. All these observations lead us to believe that the Cylons are sentient beings who, even though they participated in genocide, deserve some basic “human” rights.
Roslin simply doesn’t believe the humanoid Cylons are human enough to deserve the same rights that humans, even ones as despicable as Baltar, do. They are just machines to her. The question is, from the evidence she has access to, is this a reasonable position? Roslin doesn’t have the benefit of the viewers’ wide perspective when she makes her decisions about the Cylons, especially in the beginning. Throughout Season 1, she has no reason to believe that the flesh Cylons are anything more than machines. This is the same rationale that Cain uses for torturing Gina, so it shows what a dangerous line you’re treading by taking this position. But, would we have any qualms if Roslin airlocked a captured toaster? Yes, the “skinjobs” are more complex and more human-looking, but there’s no evidence that their humanlike actions are anything more than good acting skills programmed into them. (Leoben calls this into question with Starbuck, but again, this is something we the viewers see but Roslin doesn’t.) Do the Colonials, at this point, have any reason to believe that the flesh Cylons have more “humanity,” have a soul, than the toasters have?
In fact, the only real contact Roslin has with a Cylon before Season 3 is in “Home,” when Athena leads them to Athena’s Tomb. People who’ve had experience dealing with Athena–Helo and Starbuck–recognize that she’s different from other Cylons; people who’ve been with the fleet and have just seen Athena’s lookalike try to murder the Commander–Lee and Roslin–are all for airlocking her. And why not? They all thought Boomer was on their side, until, from their perspective, one day a switch just flipped in her wiring and she became an assassin. After witnessing that kind of lack of self-determination, why should they trust Athena? They end up trusting her because they don’t have much choice if they want to find the tomb. Throughout the rest of the season, Athena tries really hard to establish trust, but that’s done most directly with Adama, not Roslin, and almost all of Athena’s efforts could be construed as self-preservation and preserving her baby. Why take away the baby, then? My pet theory is that Roslin’s actions here have something to do with whatever role she’s meant to play, as represented in the Opera House visions, but on logical grounds, she doesn’t believe that, as a Cylon, Athena has the same rights that a human mother would. The benefit derived from the Cylons being tricked into thinking the baby is dead outweighs Athena’s non-rights in her mind. (On a related note, Helo makes a good point that Hera was his child, too, and he’s human, so it is reasonable to say Roslin walked all over his undeniable human rights when she pulled the switcheroo with Hera.)
Again, it’s Season 3 where things get less and less defensible. Now, especially in Season 3, Roslin’s not having evidence of the humanity of Cylons is partially her own fault, since there’s a Cylon accepted as part of the Colonial fleet that she doesn’t bother to talk to to see for herself if Cylons are really “human.” Adama, someone whose judgment she trusts, has bought into Athena’s humanity as well, yet Roslin still doesn’t seem swayed. But now we also have to take into account the occupation. The Cylons didn’t exactly win themselves any brownie points on New Caprica towards anyone thinking of them as human.
If I remember rightly, Roslin and Adama debate whether releasing the Cylon virus is really genocide based on whether or not the Cylons are really a race of beings or if they’re just a bunch of very deceptive machines. I think Adama would rather err on the side of caution, take into account what he sees in Athena and give the Cylons the benefit of the doubt. Roslin, most likely influenced by her experiences on New Caprica, would rather run the risk of wiping out what is possibly more than a bunch of machines to give the humans a better shot at survival.
I guess what I’m saying is, I’m not arguing that Roslin’s treatment of Cylons is objectively right, but I do think that especially early on, her decisions make sense in terms of the evidence she has at hand. Throughout Season 3, it gets harder and harder to deny the Cylons’ humanity, so I think post-NC, we’re seeing gut-level hatred play into Roslin’s decisions in a way that it probably shouldn’t. The hatred itself is completely understandable, but she’s letting it cloud her judgment.
on the leobin thing, in fact I feel a little better about her. Still she doesn’t get my vote. Since the beginning it’s just a gut feeling that she’s heading for bad, bad things.
Okay, so between a book discussion with some friends and listening to a podcast on Roman history, I think I’ve come to a conclusion.
Laura Roslin is Julius Caesar. Or else maybe Augustus Caesar.
It’s not a perfect analogy, but there you go. One person ascending to power under questionable legal pretenses, an unhappy senate/quorum, and basically doing their own thing to enact reforms and keep the people together during an unstable time. You can argue motives and whether or not it was for the good of the people or the good of themselves, but there you go.
I think a lot of the perception of Laura as a questionable figure also comes from the Western view that power belongs with the people at all times. There are cases where popular rule can be a bad thing, since a multitude of opinions means you multiply the BS. And I think that BSG did a good job of showing both sides of that issue, with a sympathetic character making a lot of ruthless and morally questionable decisions for a variety of reasons and acting in a very human manner. Was she a great leader? Probably not, but even the people we think today were history’s best leaders are viewed through rose-tinted glasses and tend to have the more unsavory details glossed over. To keep the analogy, Julius Caesar enacted some great social reforms among the Roman people and was a benefactor of the plebian class, but he also killed and enslaved millions of Gauls, etc.
) thrust upon her.