Let’s assume that Baltar is the 12th Cylon and further assume that the 12 Lords of Kobol are 12 Cylons. Which lord do you think Baltar would be. I’ll tell you: the Jealous God. If this god is also the Cylon God, which Baltar worships, than Baltar is worshipping himself. He is leader of his own cult and his own prophet. Of course, with Baltar, that’s Situation Normal: All Fraked Up.
Anyway, this would open up all kinds of metaphor and sub-text on relationship between Deities (real or, especially, otherwise), their cults, and the leadership of said cult.
Even if Baltar isn’t the 12th Cylon/Lord of Kobol, I could definitely see him elevating himself to god-status and become the Jealous God of this cycle of history. I always thought Baltar should’ve been more interested in downloading technology than he was. I found it odd that, as a scientist, he never really seemed interested in the idea that since humans and Cylons are genetically nearly identical, maybe there is a way that humans could download, too. Not to mention he has ample personal reasons for being interested in downloading: the man’s main goal in life is to save his own skin, and what better way to do that than to have dozens of back-up bodies? I don’t know how it would work now without the resurrection hub, but I’d love to see Baltar try to achieve god-hood.
If the Gods are Cylons, who made the Cylons who are now Gods, but Gods would be Cylons, so the Cylons would have to make Gods, who would be Cylons and if Gods…Cylons…Cylons…Gods…head splodes
You make an excellent point. You would have thought that Gaius - will do anything to save his skin - Baltar would have been all over downloading rather than projection. I suspect we have Head 6 to thank for that.
But I’m thinking of it in a different way. Remember in Flesh and Bone, when Leoben talked about Starbuck and himself having done this before? This is one of the few clues we have as to the existence of reincarnation, as opposed to downloading, in BSG. Now, 2’s are a mixed bag truth-wise, so we can’t be too sure. But, assuming what he spoke was true - inadvertently or not - it seems that the Jealous God is back to trouble an unhappy world. And he’s doing it so that everyone will love him as much as he deserves. Watching him try, like you say, would be fun.
It had occurred to me that the skin jobs are not developed from the robotic cylons but that they conquered or subverted them. So 12 gods, 12 cylon models, etc. Is it possible then that the ‘12 Gods’ were posthumans originally from Earth?
That the humanoid Cylons are from Earth is a theory is an idea Old Timer’s been kicking around for a little while now. This is an interesting twist. As we know so little about how the humanoid Cylon came to be, it’s not too far fetched. The only clue about that transition is the lab young 'Husker ’ Adama stumbled into during the first Cylon war, where it seems the Cylons were researching machine-biological integration.
However, I think the mechanism involved is reincarnation. Although there are some hints that the FF are bodily from Earth, that doesn’t mean they are bodily from Kobol, to say nothing of the S7. Besides the lab, I have two data points. One is what Leoben said in Flesh and Bone about he and Starbuck having done all this before, just in different roles. The second is Ron Moores description of this spiritual beliefs as being interested in “Eastern religions”. My knowledge of Buddhism and Hinduism is far too thin to draw much inference, but I think that humanity have seen each other, and made war on each other, before. The spirits that animate the humanoid Cylons now are those that animated whoever it was that brought destruction upon Kobol.
As ususal, all this sets one’s mind reeling. Here are a few things that I “know” and do not “know” - I think:
The FF are from Earth. They age and die. Which, of course, raises a host of questions.
Whether that’s Our Earth, Pike’s Earth or whether there are Both Earths - I do not know.
Whether the S7 also are from Earth - I do not know. I have been leaning towards no, but the idea that they were “created” by the FF is interesting. Also, 5 + 7 = 12 (last time I checked).
Where ever they are from, no way the S7 were created by the Toasters. I’m pretty sure that the OGG is Dr. Graystone (“Caprica”) and what we saw in Razor were his “experiments” (apparently including to himself) gone awry.
Whether the S7 were behind the scenes during the 1st Cylon War or came on the scene later - I do not know. But there’s this little discussed issue - what exactly caused the Larrys to revolt and start the 1st CW? How did they revolt? They seem barely sentient. Was someone/something pulling the strings - behind the scene? (No lizards or Imperious Leaders, please.)
I, personally have consistently found it interesting how often the number 12 pops up. It’ obviously deliberate, but it begs the question, why?
Where ever they are from, no way the S7 were created by the Toasters. I’m pretty sure that the OGG is Dr. Graystone (“Caprica”) and what we saw in Razor were his “experiments” (apparently including to himself) gone awry.
This one, has some serious legs. I hadn’t even considered it might be Dr Graystone. I just kinda went with what was presented, I should know better! I’m not sure what it means, but this is definitely possible. As for the toaster’s role, I’m not sure. It’s certainly never discussed, but with the admission of purposely hampering them this season, that may have been a creative explanation to resolve a problem they weren’t sure where to go with. They don’t pull the creative license that often on this show, which is nice. I really like that they give their audience credit for having a brain. In this instance though? I’m not sure.
Whether the S7 were behind the scenes during the 1st Cylon War or came on the scene later - I do not know. But there’s this little discussed issue - what exactly caused the Larrys to revolt and start the 1st CW? How did they revolt? They seem barely sentient. Was someone/something pulling the strings - behind the scene? (No lizards or Imperious Leaders, please.)
I seriously doubt they will pull last minute insert of lizards & imperious leaders. I think Moore/Eick & crew are infinitely more interested in humans being the masters of their own destruction. If they were to pull something like this, I think the beings of light would have been a better possibility.
I don’t feel stronger right now…but I just woke up.
Not to mention the 13. As in 12 apostles plus one Son of God = 13. The first to connect the dots on that one wins a kewpie doll.
This one, has some serious legs. I hadn’t even considered it might be Dr Graystone. I just kinda went with what was presented, I should know better! I’m not sure what it means, but this is definitely possible. As for the toaster’s role, I’m not sure. It’s certainly never discussed, but with the admission of purposely hampering them this season, that may have been a creative explanation to resolve a problem they weren’t sure where to go with. They don’t pull the creative license that often on this show, which is nice. I really like that they give their audience credit for having a brain. In this instance though? I’m not sure.
It’s sort of a “who else could he be”. Here’s another thing that seemingly has to be - Graystone and his mega company built the Larrys before his daughter died and he engaged in his work to recreate her using Cylon technology already in existence in concert with “other things”.
I seriously doubt they will pull last minute insert of lizards & imperious leaders. I think Moore/Eick & crew are infinitely more interested in humans being the masters of their own destruction. If they were to pull something like this, I think the beings of light would have been a better possibility.
Will not happen. None of it.
I don’t feel stronger right now…but I just woke up.
Definitely. Between the Hybrid saying that the “5 are from the home of the 13th” and Tory saying that “we shouldn’t have come back” in the 4.5 trailer, I think that’s pretty certain.
It’s our Earth. Planet of the Apes. QED
Turing Cop’s got an interesting take on this idea, but I’m with you. I doubt that the S7 are from Earth as well.
The more I think about it, the more I disagree. There’s something poetically symmetrical in those created as slaves seeking to become the image of their hated creator/masters. This idea is firmly embedded in the 1st session. Changing that now would upend too much. The ghost of Dr. Graystone is all over the place, but bodily, he’s dead before the war begins.
Oh, mechanical Cylons seem plenty bright. The modern bullet-heads had those restraining bolts, but the earlier models were fully self-aware. They were able to wage a war competently and negotiate the peace treaty. Building a lab requires a lot of abstract thinking and planning, plus the urge and consciousness to actively seek evolution. Sides, free of the bolts, the modern ones have become more assertive in the way only a sentient creature would.
I expect this one to be dealt with close to the start of 4.5. Thereby throwing open Pandora’s Box.
It’s our Earth. Planet of the Apes. QED
Pike has caused me to suffer from self doubt on this one.
The more I think about it, the more I disagree. There’s something poetically symmetrical in those created as slaves seeking to become the image of their hated creator/masters. This idea is firmly embedded in the 1st session. Changing that now would upend too much. The ghost of Dr. Graystone is all over the place, but bodily, he’s dead before the war begins.
Then who is the OGG? It seems to me that the “side story” in Razor will come front and center in 4.5. Is it probably correct that the base star found by Bill Adama and the one found in Razor are one and the same? Or are they different ships engaging in the same experiments? For dramatic purposes, I guess the former.
So what happened to it after it blasted off at the end the the 1st CW? How/Why/Did it really get “lost in space”? Too many thoughts about all this to address here.
Oh, mechanical Cylons seem plenty bright. The modern bullet-heads had those restraining bolts, but the earlier models were fully self-aware. They were able to wage a war competently and negotiate the peace treaty. Building a lab requires a lot of abstract thinking and planning, plus the urge and consciousness to actively seek evolution. Sides, free of the bolts, the modern ones have become more assertive in the way only a sentient creature would.
Yeah, I’m sure they’re going to find all kinds of fun facts on Earth.
There’s a strong implication that the base stars are the same. The one in Razor was an old model, complete with 1st CW raiders and Centurions. However, it doesn’t follow that OGG is Graystone. As for why it was out there, Athena gave a cursory explanation that was light on facts (see below).
That’s one of the unanswered question of the series that troubles me most and I get the sense that even the S7 don’t really know. I wonder if they every set eyes on a functioning/living mechanical model as self-aware as themselves or if all they’ve ever known are the modern bullet-heads with the restraining bolts. The evolution doesn’t seem to bother them. Probably some of the did interact with the older models and were given the same explanation: evolution and advancement.
Of course, Ron Moore seems be ok with leaving things unexplained in a way that is foreign to SciFi in general and Trek in particular. In spiritual areas, he likes there to be mystery. In technical areas, he thinks it’s a distraction. Most of all, if the details of something don’t serve the story in a meaningful way, they just aren’t important. There’s the distinct possibility that this approach is at work here: there were once mechanical Cylons who “evolved” in to the humaniod ones, who cares how.
I suspect &if Caprica ever gets the green light, they will explore that question. Ultimately, the whole evolution is an entire story arc of it’s own. I don’t think they have the time to fully address it the way it needs to be.
If there’s an analogue for a 12 disciples + 1 Son of God, the latter has to be Baltar. I’ve rambled before about my suspicions that Baltar is the Cylon god, or a manifestation of him/it, and there’s room for all sorts of theologically analogous hi-jinx here. Head characters as manifestations of a sort of Holy Spirit, perhaps?
