GWC Podcast #210

The Crew touched on this in the podcast, but what bothered me most about IV was the alien thing. Now, Sean stated with authority that it is more likely there are spaceships and aliens out there than a bloodthirsty ark and covenant. Statistically speaking, that’s probably true.

And yet.

What bugged me about aliens was that, to those of us Gen Xers whose asses were branded by the impression Raiders made on us at the age of 12, the romance was in the archaeology, the antiquities, and the almost mystical nexus between religious artifact and power. To throw in aliens is jarringly at odds with all that. So Sean’s argument - that aliens may be more “real” than the imortal Crusader in platemail…well, that’s really not the point

THe other thing that bothered me about IV was Shia LaBoef. To me he is a pernicious strain of chlamydia, having been in Transformers (which i am on record as despising). And i felt we were being manipulated by George Lucas. It was if he was sitting in his chair thinking ‘hey! if i can convince these boobs that shia is the heir apparent to indy, i can make a “Son of Indy” trilogy!’ well. no such luck. to me, shia was a disturbing Island of Dr Moreau combination of a pre-pubescent Fonzie and Brando from On the Waterfront. I wasn’t buying what he was selling.

Alas i shall not be able to join the gang at the meetup next week. this on account of my two bastard children, to whom i am extremely fond and devoted. i look forward to hearing about it.

Well, there is the whole Chariots of the Gods thing. Sure archaeologists balk at it but it’s still an intriguing idea. Besides, the whole Stargate series is based on the same premise. As Audra said and I’ll paraphrase, “It’s all mystical and supernatural.” Every Indiana Jones film focuses on fact vs. faith. Indy is a professor and scientist yet he is thrown into circumstances that are unexplainable and incapable of being proven. They must be lived and experienced. IMO, that is the core of the films. “You gotta get out of the library!!”

Good discussion.
I think what makes Raiders and Crusade superior films, and the crue touched on this, is the villains. The ideology/ philosophy of the nazis was an antithesis to what those religious artifacts represent. It’s also where Indy’s unique moral code shown the best.

i don’t think true historix NAZIs were anti-religion, they were anti a certain kind of religion. In the antithesis regard, wouldn’t the Soviets/communists in general, make a even better antithesis to religious artifacts, since their philosophy is against religion?

I don’t mean anti-religious, but what those religious artifacts represent.
The cup more so than the arc, but still with: “The army that carries the arc before will be invincible”, and given Hitler’s objective, it gives new meaning to “It belongs in a museum”.
You’re right that the Nazi’s were anti certain kinds of religion, but I would argue that that communists are too…they’re just not as villainous.

The Soviets were anti-religion, so they wouldn’t have been interested in the artifacts because they would have no meaning for them, where as the top Nazi leadership were much more mystical and would have been very interest in the artifacts.

On the other hand, German troops in English occupied Egypt prior to WWII? That’s a ‘Nuke the Fridge’ moment for me…

They really should do one about Japan then, because the imperial army were quite superstitious, and they were in many places… the whole Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand area seems like there could be some Hindu/Buddhist artifacts that would grant powers to an army…

Japanese in WWII like the NAZIs were very found of collecting arts and treasures.

First thing to toss out, I’m not a hater of the final Indy Movie, I really liked a lot of things, but there were a number of things that threw my suspension of disbelief out the window. And actually, that’s not the aliens so much, I could let the aliens go. (warning, rant about Kingdom of Crystal Skull begins here)

What epitomizes the suspension is, of course, the nuking of the fridge. However, the first call of BS was with the coffin that apparently could attract metal variably, being strong enough to pull gunpowder, shotgun pellets, pull lights towards it and slow bullets and, variably, didn’t pull the pants and belts off the soldiers, they could draw and carry their guns, and were able to actually pull it along the bed of the truck. Of course, after that is the nuking of the fridge, (which I buy less because of the nuking, but more that even if you were thrown that distance inside a fridge by any other method your insides would get totally busted up), and the rocket sled. That whole opening was just too over the top.

The next things that get me are in the jungle chase scene, the sudden clear ground to drive on I will let go, but the fencing on the front of two moving cars on dirt roads seems improbable at best. Compare it to the tank fight scene in Last Crusade. People are falling, tripping, and getting bumped off balance left and right in that fight, yet somehow in the jungle, Mutt is managing to fight standing on a speeding car with a sword. And then he grabs a jungle vine, morphs into Tarzan of the Apes, calls up his monkey friends, and goes on. A Tarzan swing is hard as hell to do if you’ve never tried, and the first time you do it, most people won’t let go of the first rope to grab the second (or land on a platform) I 'll let the ants go, they could have been acting crazy because of the skull for all I know. But the next thing that comes almost to the level of nuking the fridge is the waterfall. People survived Niagara Falls, this is true, but the falls in the film were the Iguazu Falls in South America, on average about four times as tall as Niagara, and the entire party manages to survive not one, but three falls without injury.

I love Indianna Jones, and I know there are a lot of things that stretch credulity or defy reality (various other fight scenes and the holy grail and the ark of the covenant), but they don’t do it like this. Until this movie, Indiana Jones is kind of like Batman, if you did the work out and the studying for enough time you could be a lot like him. They completely went into the land of out there in this movie. Things like the Ark and the Grail you accept as items that work outside of what we rationally know because they have some special property. Everything else, however, we should be able to treat as if it was in the real world.

A friend of mine says he prefers to think the nuking of the fridge killed Indy, and the rest of the movie was a hallucination he had before dying. I say this more for the laughs than anything else.

If not for the things above, this movie would definitely beat out Temple of Doom on my Indy list (and be making a case against Raiders). I do love the interactions. I love how Mutt acts with Mariam and Indy, and the characters. I wholeheartedly concede that aliens aren’t any more outlandish than Indian Stones or the Holy Grail. I bought the motorcycle sequence and loved it. The bar fight was classic Indy. I just feel like there were some areas where somebody (and I’m willing to guess it was Lucas) said ‘hey, we’ve got better technology now, wouldn’t it be cool to do this.’ It’s not the question of plausible or not, it’s the question of humanly possible. I never had an issue with the shark tank in Jaws or flaming-exploding cars (which mythbusters loves to do), but rather with this movie seeming to jump from the old tradition of ‘wow, it’s awesome he did that’ to ‘no way in hell he can do it’.

Okay, rant over.

Audra mentioned something about ratings and face melting. Actually the exploding head of the priest in Raiders nearly go the film an R rating, they had to put the pillar of fire over it and tone some other stuff down to make it be PG. They also did the Raider’s face melt with a dental compound in colored layers that melted when put under a heat lamp. They shot it at one frame per second, which makes it appear to melt the way it does. I forget how they did it in Last Crusade, and I’m sure the Skull one was digital.

With the Nazis, there is actual historical fact to the the notion of the Nazi’s looking for various artifacts. Hitler was all about the whole “Aryan Master Race” bit, and that included finding historical and archaeological justification for where the master race had been, what they had done, etc. They might not have been as blatantly military as in the movies, but they were definitely Nazis doing it. I can only imagine a quest to recover the grail would have been kept secret and had security personnel.

From what I’ve read, one plan for Temple of Doom involved Indiana Jones motorbiking down a length of the Great Wall while looking for some religious artifact, but the Chinese Government of the time wasn’t so hot on it. Don’t know how true that is though.

Thanks Robin, I really enjoyed the explanations!

One interesting tidbit to throw out there in the whole Nazi’s vs Soviets, who is the more evil discussion. It’s not often appreciated that Stalin quite probably killed more people than Hitler did, with estimates ranging from 3 million to 60 million. Plus, if you think about invading and occupying other countries, the Soviets were in occupation for far, far longer than the Nazi’s managed.

Good point. Something we didn’t talk much about as he was helping us kick Hitler’s ass. :slight_smile:

Wanda Sykes as Black Widow = LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL :smiley:
I laughed hard at that, thanks Audra.

What 'talos said.

Oh! I know we can all be nitpicky but listening to the podcast and you guys are talking about Indy speaking Quechua - which is good, because that’s awesome, and it is indeed the language people around Cuzco would be speaking…

… but there is no way in hell he would have learned that from Pancho Villa (whose real name was Doroteo Arango… awesome name!), who was leader in Northern Mexico during the Mexican Revolution. Quechua isn’t spoken north of the Andes… but that just might explain the mariachi music, though that’s not from the same part of Mexico as Pancho Villa, either… OK I give up trying to make sense of it.

I’ll third this! I didn’t see it till it was out on Blu-ray, so I’d heard about the fridge thing & was prepared to pass it by with just a bit of eye-rolling, but the monkeys … Was there some reason the monkeys hated Communists but were okay with Shia? Parachuting with an inflatable raft - implausible, yes, but entertaining. The monkey segment just struck me as stupid, where the flood of Insanely Deadly Ants did not.

That said, this episode made me appreciate the movie more for all the good character bits. I did enjoy seeing Marion again, and liked their marriage at the end … I liked the movie the first time I saw it because advance anti-hype had lowered my expectations sufficiently, but if I saw it again, I might be able to celebrate its good parts more! (Not the monkeys though.)

The Firefly segment was great. Excellent work. Thanks for sharing!

It came up in a couple podcasts but I’m just now getting around to commenting - its about the whips. Jokes were made and comments about “special” uses. I just have to tell you that you are wrong - single tail whips are indeed put to special uses. I have several friends who like them very much. Just sayin’

I’m guessing they have the complete Gor collection, yeah?

Trust me, having seen both, trust me: The whip I was using in the podcast is a different beast altogether. :slight_smile:

nah, of the ones I know - they find Gor offensive. :slight_smile:

I will yield that point then, as I didn’t see them :slight_smile: