Grimnosity

Television, Movies Games and Books BSG-2003
#41

To be serious for a moment, a sterling example of NB’s points is to be found in the recent history of the North American continent. Obviously, I am referring to those Native American tribes that eschewed an agrarian life style and remained hunter gathers until - well, you know the rest.

Once one dispenses with the “Dances With Wolves” malarky and takes an honest look at these cultures (and one has to address them in plural terms), the hunter gatherer Americans had “succesful” societies. Did they have wars with other tribes? Sure. Did some enslave other tribes? Yes. Could individuals be “brutal”. Of course. Apparently those are constants of human nature.

But, if one steps back and looks at these tribes “big picture”, until the European Americans showed up, they had endured, succesfully, for centuries in essentially the same “form” - developed language, writing, music, religion, basic tools and used horses (once the Spanish introduced them to the continent). And I’ll tell you what, give me (as a young, but well informed, boy) the choice between life among the buffalo hunting plains tribes or at a tin mill in the British Midlands in 1840 or so - and that’s an easy one.

By the way, the agrarian Native Americans of the New England area, for example, had stable, succesful societies as well. (The Wampanougs - I hope I got the correct tribe there - certainly pulled the Pilgrims chesnuts out of the fire - all of which makes Nathaniel Philbrick’s “Mayflower” such a great read for the amateur historian.)

#42

I’m happy to agree on the desirability of good dental hygiene, although as a Brit I’m undoubtedly less fastidious than some of my trans-Atlantic brethren (was it on one of the 'casts that someone referenced a band called the British Teeth?).

Have to say though, that I have quite happily used a stick, in Ethiopia and Western Sahara. There’s a particular type of tree (maybe more than just the one species - botany isn’t my strong point) that is prized for its ability to provide impromptu tooth-brushes in the form of small twigs from which you strip the bark at one end, using the tip as a brush. Probably not as efficient as the high-tech, over-engineered toothbrush I use at home, but not bad.

#43

My toothbrush has an inhibitor chip.

#44

LOL. Whatever gets the job done. And this naturalistic approach has none of the creeping communism aspects that some Americans still attribute to flouridated drinking water.

By the way, the American comedian Mike Myers has made himself a very wealthy man by making fun of British teeth -among other things of other nationalities - just about everything come to think of it. His character Dieter, the host of the West German TV show “Sprockets” being my personal favorite. (Where’s Galaxy Ranger when you need him?)

(I wonder on how many other BSG forums the conversations have gone down a path such as this?)

#45

rotflmao :wink:

#46

Ah, communism and capitalism - both products of progressivist, utopian ideologies born in Western Europe. Well, communism more so - capitalism has a natural appeal on one level in terms of basic trade and commerce, but has been turned into a utopian project at the extreme end.

On the teeth and Mike Myers, we can take it, but might not be able to bite back as hard as those with better toothbrushes (e.g. with inhibitor chips).

Other forums going down this line? None, I’m sure. We’re unique. We’re the best (to quote Tyrol from the miniseries). Well, maybe some - BSG certainly engenders vigorous debate all over…

#47

You know - Myers is Canadian - come to think of it.

#48

Yes, different societies evolve in different ways and make different choices. It’s not inevitable that they all end up in the same place. Of course those that develop powerful weapons and ideologies of domination and superiority are likely to end up causing trouble for others, and there’s a good chance they’ll come out on top through sheer belligerence. Of course they then think they’re better and that everything about them is superior. Sometimes they have a change of heart and decide to generously help the rest of the world and “bring it up” to their level. But the things that work in one place don’t necessarily work in another. There have been several attempts by European and North American governments to “assist” African societies by helping them to develop northern-style intensive agricultural systems. The results have been pretty disastrous - in the much more marginal and variable environments of the semi-arid regions of Africa these models have failed because they can’t cope with extreme variations in climate and environment (e.g. British and French in the Sahel in the 1950s and 60s). The point here is that societies adapt to their environments and that gives us diversity. It’s easy to think one way is better, but that’s to miss the point that different societies face different challenges and have different resources at their disposal.

The colonials may (or may not) have had something to give to the native Earth inhabitants, but I think it might have been more a case of vice versa. The one thing the colonials had that might have been of some help was technological know-how (and this may not all have been relevant or applied in particularly useful ways) - what they needed, especially as people who were renouncing technological civilisation, was knowledge of their new environment and how to survive in it. Even if they had retained their technology they could have done with a primer in how Earth “worked” from people who were already familiar with it - natural cycles, rainfall patterns etc.

Oh dear, I fear I’m going to have to write a paper on the anthropology of the BSG finale, and I’m already behind on the ones I’m committed to…

#49

Over here we sometimes find it hard to tell the difference!

#50

Don’t worry. We have the same difficulty here too… :wink:

#51

Sorry to belabor the point, but it’s kind of important. MtEve isn’t necessarily the one whose genes dominated. She’s merely the one whose maternal line is shared by everyone. It may be that all that’s left is a few slightly mutated versions of her MtDNA (which doesn’t come into play in human development the way our ‘regular’ DNA does.)

#52

I beg to differ. But that’s for another day and is “nonjudgmental”. However, the opportunities for humor at the expense of those both north and south of the border are virtually endless.

#53

I get it. And understand that what “we” have in common biologically (if that’s even the right word) with MtEve may well be “something less” than DNA. What that might be - now there’s an interesting topic.

#54

Sure - at the level that someone like even I can grasp - remove the buffalo (without the European Americans around to factor in) and what are the natures of the indigenous societies on the Plains of North America? Do they need their version of Baltar to help them with agriculture (the horror!) or are “they” simply not there (much easier for the overly maligned Custer).

The “American” West provides such an interesting snapshot on human belligerence. (And I am not forgetting the human toll here - merely observing.) Both societies were replete with “belligerence”. Indeed one (one) reason some of the Plains tribes were “predominant” (that is a terrible word for the true situation) is because they were succesfully belligerent. But the European Americans - that was BELLIGERENCE at a whole different level, enabled by superior power to back it up (in terms of numbers, weapons, experience when it came to killing humans and, to some degree, determination).

#55

A few things that occurred to me while reading this highly interesting conversation.

Something that NB brought up got me thinking. Let’s assume for just a moment, that the finale happened in fact, not just on screen. Putting assied issues of culture clashes & possible colonialism mentality. (which I find to be dubious in this situation). What kind of disease & disease resistence could this have introduced to the native populations?

NB also brought up the different problems that have come into play while trying to essentially “westernize” & “modernize” Africa, without taking into account the cultures present as well as the realities of the continent itself. This made me remember a brief article, that may have been linked here on GWC (I don’t think so but I don’t remember where I got the link). Essentially it was an observation on the differences in reactions to the current economic crisis worldwide. Specifically, the communities i the US & some communities in western Africa. They were basically stating that American communities believe they will eventually come out of this OK because they trust each other to do the right thing in helping to turn this around. By contrast, the communities in west Africa & most importantly, where the heaviest slave trading was happening, this atmosphere of trust is non-existent. Essentially, yet another legacy of the slave trade is lingering mistrust of one’s neighbor’s is hindering Africa’s ability to rebound. I don’t know why, but that brief observation just really hit home for me. I believe it also explains one of the MANY, MANY problems with modern Africa.

I have to wonder as well, NickB, what your thoughts are on the difference in approach that the Gates foundation in partnership with Bono have towards aiding the populace of Africe. It’s my understanding their basic premise is, If people have basic healthcare & immunizations, they can then, go to school reliably & complete an education which will in turn directly help their community in finding solutions to help themselves instead of going in & mandating to them what they need to “better” themselves.

#56

small bacteria. No good. Still, even if they had used their tech to go on there wasn’t (apparently) enough without the ships. I would have landed everything possible to land and gone from there.

Woulda been nice if they had been implied to be the Atlanteans. Then the explosion of Thera could have been a nuke instead of a volcano. Even better if this had been in the future instead of the past–then we could have back story about how we got back to being in primitive civ. again and/or the remnants of our civ. could have been something they could have leaned upon to persist.

Everything’s better than dancing robots.

#57

I like this idea.

#58

Hera and the like. This implies something of the BSG world persisted in myth and religion. They and their progeny, were the New Lords of Kobol.

Of course, assuming the finale happened as mentioned previously perhaps they enslaved the indigenous people. Slavery of sentient beings was hardly outside their domain, thus resulting in the aforementioned attitudes.