Cylons are all individuals

Television, Movies Games and Books BSG-2003
#1

I had formatted this for inserting in the ‘Resurrection’ thread, but as my mind wandered, the theme shifted. (See, OT, you’re not the only one.) So it probably deserves its own entry.

One question I posed (early in the rambling Resurrection thread) regarded the continuity of the thoughts and experiences of the resurrected character. (I’m leaving aside my lengthy existentialist hybrid-like utterings on more general aspects of resurrection/transportation, and the death of the ‘original’ here.)

There were a couple of replies:

And…

I think it almost certain that memories and thoughts from others of their own line are not explicitly entered into the process, or shared during the resurrection.

Until the Cylons closely encountered humans they may not have thought much about it themselves. There was likely little need for resurrection, until they started dying in combat, and generally they all pretty much thought alike and had the same goals.

But their observations of humans stimulated thoughts within themselves. They recognised they were all individuals. Yes, all separate individuals. Now, to the Cavils this simply did not matter. But to the Six’s, Eight’s and Three’s (possibly the Leoben’s too) this must have been a rude awakening.

So, yes, a Cylon could resurrect, and retain all the memories and thoughts and opinions and newly-formed beliefs as its (dead) predecessor, but this could not change all the existing models of its line.

Hence, we have Athena being a completely different individual to Boomer, despite the fact that Athena resurrected in Rapture after Boomer had previously resurrected following Cally’s Jack Ruby on her. And it explains all the lily-livered weak Sharon-girly-types on the Basestar. They have been around for ages, and never lived or experienced through Boomer and Athena’s lives. They may have accessed the information somehow, but it has not imprinted into their actual personalities.

I could draw a similar argument regarding the Six’s.

Thus, every Cylon is individual, with their own thoughts and personalities, and resurrection simply continues on the line of one individual person/Cylon. Perhaps considering resurrection more of a death-recovery medical technology may be more apt.

This then brings me around to an earlier line I have been pushing since my first post: just what is the difference between the Cylons and humans? And my answer: I’m not certain there is any difference.

#2

My first thought on this topic:

//youtu.be/2T1LIrzsgqA

#3

[spoiler]It will be explicitly stated in a future episode that all the memories from a resurrecting Cylon are uploaded and shared.[/spoiler] We have seen already that the memories of resurrecting Cylons are shared. Athena told Chief that she had all of Boomer’s memories about their relationship. It would also explain how all the Cylons know Hera’s name.

But their observations of humans stimulated thoughts within themselves. They recognised they were all individuals. Yes, all separate individuals. Now, to the Cavils this simply did not matter. But to the Six’s, Eight’s and Three’s (possibly the Leoben’s too) this must have been a rude awakening.

So, yes, a Cylon could resurrect, and retain all the memories and thoughts and opinions and newly-formed beliefs as its (dead) predecessor, but this could not change all the existing models of its line.

We’ve already seen existing models with knowledge from a resurrecting model (i.e., Athena having Boomer’s memories). In fact, it also sounds like Athena also has the same landing style as Boomer.

Hence, we have Athena being a completely different individual to Boomer, despite the fact that Athena resurrected in Rapture after Boomer had previously resurrected following Cally’s Jack Ruby on her. And it explains all the lily-livered weak Sharon-girly-types on the Basestar. They have been around for ages, and never lived or experienced through Boomer and Athena’s lives. They may have accessed the information somehow, but it has not imprinted into their actual personalities.

I could draw a similar argument regarding the Six’s.

RDM has stated that Caprica Six and Athena are special in some way that sets them a bit apart from the other members of their line. Boomer is a little different also. I would say Natalie might fall into that group as well.

The Threes must have been sharing the information of their post-death experiences, otherwise, why box all of them?

Thus, every Cylon is individual, with their own thoughts and personalities, and resurrection simply continues on the line of one individual person/Cylon. Perhaps considering resurrection more of a death-recovery medical technology may be more apt.

I think the evidence shows that Cylons are both individuals and members of a larger collective. Information is shared by resurrecting Cylons to the active members of their line (or perhaps to all Cylons) and each line can communicate to other members of the line for voting and debate. At the same time, we have Boomer, Athena, Caprica Six, and Natalie all acting outside of the initial parameters of their programming and developing distinct personalities.

This then brings me around to an earlier line I have been pushing since my first post: just what is the difference between the Cylons and humans? And my answer: I’m not certain there is any difference.

Humans are born, Cylons aren’t. Cylons can be boxed, humans can’t. Cylons can resurrect, humans can’t (except for Starbuck and maybe Baltar).

#4

I do not deny this.

But… having access to memories, and actually understanding through experience those memories is a different thing altogether.

Firstly, what is the ‘access’ process? When a Cylon resurrects do all the other Cylons automatically get the dead one’s information magically uploaded to them while they are walking around? Do they have to ‘jack in’ to a port? What if they don’t want to? Or are out of range? Do they get all the information, or just pick and choose what they want or need? (Do they really need to remember Athena went to the head at 1955? And picked a fleck of dust off her uniform at 0615? And thought the algae soup smelled a bit off at 1245? How finite is their brain storage capacity? Surely you would not want it filled with years and years of mundane craaaap?)

Secondly, who’s to say it would not be like me reading a book on, say, string theory? In one ear, out the other. Without living it, without actually experiencing it, the impact would be necessarily less. I come back to the Sharon clones. Their pretty little heads may be filled with Boomer and Athena’s memories, so… WHY ARE THEY ALL STILL SUCH AIRHEADS? Weak, indecisive, lacking confidence, hanging around in supportive groups. Nothing like Athena.

RDM has stated that Caprica Six and Athena are special in some way that sets them a bit apart from the other members of their line.

Perhaps by virtue of the simple fact that their life experiences have been radically different?

Otherwise we start getting to the ridiculous situation of making exceptions here, exceptions there, but not here, not there. “Oh, this Six is unique, but all these other Six’s are just Stepfords.” (Simpler and more logically plausible to accept my individuality idea.)

The Threes must have been sharing the information of their post-death experiences, otherwise, why box all of them?

As I said, I do not dispute ‘sharing information’ within the line’s models.

I think the evidence shows that Cylons are both individuals and members of a larger collective.

LOL… Well, that sounds exactly like…er… humans to me!

Humans are born, Cylons aren’t.

The messy mechanics are not really relevant. Humans are biological machines as well; we just happen to grow our embryos inside a human body. Cylons may do it outside.

Cylons can be boxed, humans can’t.

We don’t know this. There have been no examples.

Cylons can resurrect, humans can’t (except for Starbuck and maybe Baltar).

So your exceptions (which I agree with, BTW) demonstrate that humans can resurrect! If they can, why can’t others?

#5

I’m not convinced Starbuck and Baltar are normal humans.

#6

Just a thread bump here, as our renegage Sharon seemed to answer some of this pretty clearly in “Hub” last night…
It appears that when a skinjob’s resurrected, ALL the memories, feelings, etc., are downloaded into the Hub mainframe. They are then available for access by other skinjobs, as the Sharon did with Athena’s memories…weirding Helo out in the process.
So apparently, as I had theorized in another thread a few weeks ago, (and just going back to find THIS thread really makes you realize how many great ideas and discussions we’ve all been having over the past weeks!),
the entire life experience of a skinjob is downloaded and stored during resurrection, and although not automatically transmitted to all others of that line, is available for perusal by others of that line, and able to be completely assimilated into their psyche.

#7

Yep, and it is creepy. Poor Helo. He’s working with an enemy that is exactly like the woman he loves beyond reason, had to blow up a whole room full of women who look just like his wife, had to betray the trust Athenawannabe who looks just like his wife. Tell me that is not going to be hard on a guy’s psyche? Plus that betraying and lying is totally against his nature. Helo always does the right thing, even when he is following orders to the contrary.

#8

Just how were the first humanoid Cylons of both the 7 line and FF created? Ressurection does not equal original creation (duh). How long have they been around for?

I know that this is old hat, but the Toasters did not make them. What’s Graystone got to do with all this? Where were they at the time of the First Cylon War?

CONCERN of mine - the writers have so many story lines and unanswered (secondary) questions going that there is no way that all can be tied up to the satisfaction of folks like us.

#9

I just posted a question re this line on your other new thread, Gramps. One of the skinjobs referred to “The Makers” being on the Galactica…not sure which race he/she was referring to though.

#10

What I found kind of creepy was when Athenawannabe told all of the skeptical pilots that she was “just like” Athena. She was acting like Athena too - I thought she was Athena at first, based on her mannerisms and comfort level with Helo.

#11

I had a moment like that too, before she started giving him a backrub…“Oh. Athena stowed away on the basestar!” The Sharon really did seem to be in love with Helo just like Athena, huh? I guess those Cylon downloads are serious business!

#12

What’s interesting though is that while some of the 8’s have accessed Athena’s memories and experiences and therefore in many ways are identical to her, they have not been sharing in the visions that Athena has with C6, Laura and Hera.

Is Hera the source of the visions and are only those people connected with her sharing in them? Its interesting that Baltar’s vision of the Opera House way back in Kobal’s Last Gleaming also involved Hera, however when Diana was in the OH I guess Hera wasn’t there…

Hmmmm…?

#13

Here’s the key difference between Athina and Athinawannabe. Helo wants to take three to Roslin. Athinawannabe says “thats a lie” or “I trusted you”. Helo, because Athinawannabe is not his wife, he still follows orders. Now would Athina let Het Helo take three to Roslin? I’d say yes, after telling Anders to kill six for killing that chick, I think we can all assume shes pretty much loyal to her fleet

I think that if you share memories,a abilities, yes, your going to think the same. But, once you break away fromt hat, go somewhere else, meet other people. , you become different. You can share as memany memmories as you want, but Athinawanna be is not Athina. She doesn’t think like Athina, she has seen what Athina has seen but she has not expeirenced what Athina has expiereinced.

In the same way, Athina is not in love with chief. Sheprobably might know everything that happened between Boomer and Cheif, but but Athina is not Boomer.

Heres something that is very odd. What makes Athina so different then the other eights in the first place? Eights want to cling to things, their very neieve, they are loyal to you, untill they see somthing shiney. So…what clicked in Athina’s brain?

It iss my concluetiont hat the cylons do not start out as indivuals. But overtime, they can become individuals. Thats how Athina, and Boomer, and potentaly Athinawanna be, broke away fromt he model. That’s how the civil war started.

#14

Helo.

Then she went to Galactica, where nothing is shiny.

#15

What if Athenawannabe has shared enough of Athena to see something shinny and want it… Helo. Wonder how far she might go to claim that prize.

#16

Well, she Athinawanna be needs to tred very lightly, because I don’t think Helo is going to fall for her. I think that if Athina told him to not take three to Roslin, he would have. I don’t think she would have, but Athianwanna be would. Plus, you reallyd on’t want Athina to know that you took her memories. iI don’t knwo about you, but I would not want that chick pissed off at me lol

Youc an share memories, but the cylons also have something else, free will. They may have certain ways of thinking about things, but barriers can be broken, minds can change. Two people can see the same thing, and ocme up with two different perspectives about something. It’s not about the memmory, its about what you take from the memory.

Well, it wasn’t just Helo that changed Athina. You got to renimber there was a tleast a year of her on the ship that really could have also changed the character (the year on new caperica)

Am I the only one finding this absolutely fascinating? lol

#17

Nope, I do too. BTW… breathless is perfect.

Obviously eights have been important to the series in a number of ways least of which is the sceevy factor. I wouldn’t be surprised if something big is up relative to Athena and Helo.

#18

I believe that was the hybrid. It mentioned the death of the Six that was with the Makers, referring to Natalie. At first, I’d thought it was talking about the humans in general, but it could be the Final Five or even gasp! the Cylon God.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: Helo has the Kavorka! :slight_smile:

Kavorka. I’m just saying… :rolleyes:

#19

well, except for the chief’s head.

i am really looking forward to what three will act now, now that she’s the ONLY three in the entire universe AND mortal now. sort of makes her even more human than the rest of the cylons, no? (well, except for the superhuman powers. i guess. that’s still around, no?) she’s kind of on par with the final fives, who as we know so far, is the only copy of their ‘line’ (if such a thing even exists).

#20

[My very first gloat] You know, this is probably the first time my analysis has proven to be correct. Please bear with me during this brief moment.

I know it’s likely not much to some of you, but for me… I’ll be in my bunk. [/Gloat]