BANNED! books week

GWC Community GWC Book Club
#21

I have to take Hannibleking’s side on this. Parents have a responsibility to teach their children to make their own choices and to help them develop the analytical and comprehensive tools they need to discern meaning in the things they read. Too often, however, parents eschew that responsibility, for whatever reason, and expect the government/school system to pick up the slack. Like you, Rorlins, I don’t want my kindergartner reading about sex until she’s old enough to understand it. I don’t expect, however, her elementary school library to stock books which are inappropriate for an elementary school curriculum, but if the question comes up, I, as a parent, need to be ready to answer it, no matter how uncomfortable.

Does that make sense? I’m suddenly feeling like I’ve just typed a somewhat incoherent rant.

#22

:slight_smile:

Ya kinda, you kinda did.

I mean, really we can’t have it both ways. Either we want schools and public libraries show some form of restriaint and “decency” when they pick books to put on the shelves or we don’t. Either we want to be sure that if a child picks up a book at school that the book is more or less appropriate in reading level, content and message, or we want EVERYthing available.

There is no middle ground folks.

You can’t say “I don’t want my kid to read The Story of O” at the same time you insist “Don’t you DARE take Huck Finn off that shelf!” When the dust settles either we accept the community standards for the community we live in, or we move. Or we work to change those standards.

We are not islands onto our own little families; we are part of various communities where standards range far and wide, from towns that go nutzoid if there’s a Hooters on the corner to cities where you can ask the police for directions to the nearest Fetish Club.

We all have “the Right to Read” in the form that there is a free press and with it the right to speak out. It’s not censorship unless a government forbids the publication of some book or paper. But there is no “Right to a Public Library.” There is no “Right to have every book available to you.” As adults we are free to chose what books we SEEK OUT and read on our own. But that does NOT give us the right to put those books in the hands of other people’s children. You might think that the Penthouse Forum is good bedtime reading for your 11 year old; I don’t. I have as much right to keep that away from my child until he’s old enough for it as you do to make it available.

I want to emphasize that: I have as much right to protect my child from books I disagree with as you do make those books available to yours.

So what does a library do when I walk in and ask that they take “Salem Falls” off the shelf? Who’s rights are more important, mine or yours? On which side do you err? To overprotect or underprotect?

And I’m not saying that a good parent should just let their kid read whatever and not be a part of it, but an issue like this, one of what is and is not acceptable in schools, school libraries and public libraries is a complex issue and not one that we simply fall back to some moral relativistic stance of “Let’s all just do what works for us”. My kid is in school with yours and they have to have a policy which makes BOTH of us happy, you and me.

Finally, I find it dangerously naive to believe that books do not influence people. Infact I would say that books are far more influential than movies, TV or video games. Catcher in the Rye, Atlas Shrugged, The Bible, What Color is Your Parachute, The Tao of Pooh, The Lord of the Rings, the list goes on and on and on of books which have inspired people to act, to change, to become involved, to have a new outlook on life. To say “it’s just a book” or “the book can’t be to blame” completely downplays how much of an impact literature can have. Sure a girl who reads Salem Falls and sets out to frame her teacher for rape probably already had a screw or two loose. Possibly a whole lot of loose screws. But that shouldn’t downplay too much the role that the book might have had.

As an adult I read it and I found it mildly entertaining. But I would be very concerned if I saw any of my teenaged students reading it; especially if they were a young lady who did not like me.

Rorlins
“If brevity is the soul of wit, I’m a total moron.”

#23

FWIW, I suspect there’s always middle ground – we live there. Both sides of this discussion are correct, because it’s impossible to agree completely on what’s acceptable and what’s not, and it’s impractical to allow anything at all into schools.

Generally I think the confusion – and the reason for our negative reaction to “banned books” – comes in the gray area where “questionable” material is used to good effect and purpose. The difference between “The Story of O” and “Huck Finn” is that in 'Story, the questionable material is the point. In 'Finn, the questionable material is part of a larger work.

My personal opinion – with which you could easily disagree with my respect – is that we have to accept and live in the gray area. Removing, for example, 'Story which is pretty obviously not appropriate for the school library, and leaving 'Finn, which includes some difficult matter – but is acceptable with proper parental guidance.

A quick funny story: when I was in junior high school, I wanted to read DNA’s Hitchhiker trilogy – which back then was actually still a trilogy – but it wasn’t in the library because it contained a minor bit of language. I asked the librarian about it, and she said, “No, it’s on a list we can’t buy.” I objected, so she bought a copy, read it, then went to bat for it with the powers-that-be, arguing that the language was minor and that the content was acceptable – even laudable. We got a copy of all three books. She still is, in my mind, the ultimate school librarian. She was mean, but her powers of intimidation were used for good, not evil. If you mistreated a book, she’s have your ass. And if you got in the way of students requesting a book that wasn’t really inappropriate, she’s have your ass, too. Rock.

#24

Reading up on hisotircal statements by the ALA? This is actually an excellent paraphrase of the relevant documents that is far more readable than the actual documents. Thank you very much Armando.

#25

Yeah, as usual Chuck’s right on this. My “black/white” stance is mostly a reaction to other black/white stances. If someone says that no one should be denied a book they want to read as a teenager, then I have to ask where do we draw the line in what is and is not appropriate.

And the problem is that not everyone is willing to agree when the “difficult matter” crosses into “obviously not appropriate”. And it’s that line that moves around a lot based on community.

Taking your wonderful personal anecdote (which I have to say clearly this was a cool librarian), what would have happened if she had decided that for your age, the langauge wasn’t appropriate and it’d be up to your parents to buy that book instead of she? Is she now the “bad guy” in the story?

I wish I had the time to pre-read every book my prenatal son is going to want to read. Sadly I know I’m going to have to trust these insititutions to do some of that pre-reading for me. I think perhaps I’m defensive of those who say “you’ll need to go to Amazon for that” becuase I know soon I will need to trust their judgement about what they put on their shelves. shrug

Rorlins

#26

Caring adults do get concerned like this when we see young people reading things we know may have a negative effect on them. But I believe this is where it’s our job, all of us who pay attention and are concerned, to engage the student (or child, etc.) in conversation about what they’re reading and what they’re getting out of it. Obviously we can’t always do this in every situation. But if we all make an effort to give a little oversight and commitment to keeping up with what the kids in our community are reading (and watching, playing, practicing, and imitating), we’ll do just fine.

If we try to limit others’ choices because we’d prefer everything to be “safe” according to our own standards, we only shrug off some of our own responsibility and bring the public book collections down to the lowest common denominator - something everyone feels safe with, which I imagine would consist of two books: Goodnight, Moon and The Monster at the End of this Book. Of course, one could always suggest that the former would inspire youngsters to talk to inanimate objects, and the latter supports the occult of talking beasts. :wink:

It’s easy to use something like a graphic sex novel as an example, but most books being challenged or banned are far less provocative. I respect wanting our kids to live in a safe place and not have age-inappropriate material flung at them from every direction. But I’d prefer (my child or student, anyway) to read Anne Frank and then discuss the difficult questions or disturbing scenes, rather than protect the child from the book, and thus also from the knowledge and lessons and history that we get from it - all those things that would help her to be a more thinking, compassionate individual. (By the way, The Diary of Anne Frank has been banned before for being “too depressing.”)

Of course most people don’t want to give toddlers the kama sutra, but in almost every case we’re talking about much less obvious choices. And when the shades are gray, we need to err on the side of responsibility, tolerance, and choice.

#27

gwensdad2003 - I’ve gotta thank you for bringing up this thread, as well. I’m offering my college English students extra credit for writing about a particular banned book by an author of color (it’s an African American studies course), and also extra credit for volunteering to read from such a book in class. Most of the “classics” by minority authors have been banned or challenged at some point or another, including Maya Angelou, Toni Morrison, and the children’s author, Mildred D. Taylor.

Since the official Banned Books week is just about over, I’m letting them do the project throughout the entire month of October.

#28

Maya Angelou rocks. Not a fan of Morrison, or at least not a fan of Sula. One of those books I would definitely not have read if I didn’t have to.

#29

I had no idea! I haven’t kept up with the ALA, or our school board (my oldest JUST started kindergarten and we might not be living in the same state, let alone the same school district, come next fall. So cut me some slack already!) or their official policies, so I wouldn’t know. My wife and I tend to stay pretty on top of what our kid watches, listens to and reads. Obviously, now that she’s in school and her friends will begin excerting more influence on her tastes than we will, we’ll have to work harder at it, but I like to think that it’s our responsibility as her parents to guide her in the right direction, even if it means occassionally having a less-than-comfortable conversation with her. I tend to think that this involves having access to any sort of book, though I will grant that certain types just won’t appeal to her simply by the level of proficiency required of their readers (she’s just learning to read now, so giving her a copy of “Huck Finn” or “The Story of O” would not affect her one iota).

And mind you, I worry about her and her innocence. We live in a world where kids can access some strange stuff pretty much whenever they want. Hell, some things are marketed towards kids that in my day would’ve been pretty risque (ABC Family, for instance, broadcasts some movies that, in their time, were pretty raunchy. Hell, they have an original series, “Greek,” about life in a frat house!). Four year olds can go to stores called “Libby Lu” where they can get dolled up and given a “Paris Hilton” style makeover (subject of satire on the South Park episode, “Paris Hilton is a Dirty Whore.” Yes, those places are real and Parker and Stone deserve their Peabody just for that episode) and this is considered okay by more than just a few parents (these are rather profitable businesses, apparently). Parents need to take responsibility for their kids and teach them right from wrong. That is not a school’s job nor should it be.

Which is to say, I see Rorlins’ point, but I also have to continue to disagree with it (sorry). When we start asking our public institutions to selectively ban literature or any other communicative art form in order to protect a small portion of the population we’re asking the government to play a role in our lives that it should not play in a democratic and free society. At its best, it leads to the Attorney General placing curtains around statues of Justice in the lobby of the Justice Department to cover their nudity and at their worst, it leads to sensoring books and other media because of the ideas they convey.

#30

But what about trusting YOUR intuition, Rorlins? You’re this kid’s first and most important role model. If you teach him/her right, s/he’ll ultimately make the right choices as well as learn from his/her own mistakes.

And by the way, congratulations!!!:slight_smile:

#31

I am highly enthralled by this conversation. I find everyones points well thought out. Rather than the normal small post argument (nearly every post on imdb). As a history major(and film) I usually write papers for my class like these. I find unsupported arguments confusing and they simply seem like bursts of conciousness. At least use a personal refrence such, as Chuck so eloquently did, if you dont have any background info.

But, anyway… I wont comment on the school bannings again, I don’t have kids so I will attempt to humbly remove myself of it.

Just to clarify, a library is a collection of information, so I believe “inappropriate”(being a relative term) doesnt exsist, as its unbiased. I, once again being a history major have to go to public libraries to look up primary source documents. I went and found a book written by Hans Gunther, his book was the founding book for the nazi movement (Aryan or Nordic=good Jew=Bad). If someone had banned it because it supported the Nazi movement. Then I would be without a perspective document to refrence for my essay first of all laughs. But it is only information. You could say that it could, be behind violence towards Jews and it should be banned because without it, it would reduce anti-semetic violence, so as to “downplay its influence”. But then if you allow that to be banned I’ll jump strait on the train and say get rid of the bible and not allow our kids to read it, because it influences us to… be anti-semetic, stone those who commit adultery(not rape mind you but in todays terms cheat), burn heritics, ect…

No it shouldn’t. But if you want the influence to stop, do it through education not restriction. Teach people how to read something un-biasedly as I was taught. Teach them tolerence yet differentiation. Restriction will never solve the problem only limit the problem. Not only is it your responsibility as a parent to your child. But as Humanity’s responsibility to its own members to make each other responsible and intellegent members of a free society.

If you don’t wnat your kid or yourself reading what is in your library, don’t go and do not let your kid go. You have a choice if even one member of your community wants to read “The Story of O” then he can read it and you can just not read it. You could say but that simply is taking greater risks for my children and making it easier for them to get it if its in the public library. Well, go to the library with them and make sure they don’t pick it up, or better yet explain why and let them understand why not to for their self, you dont have to explain the explicit details of the novel to have them understand why they shouldn’t read it. And no simply saying your to young doesn’t count. Point is if its in the public library and you don’t want your kid to read it then you have the ability to keep them from reading it you just have to be willing to put fourth effort. So, other people (and their kids) can still enjoy it, and your kid can be safe.

By the way, interesting story I just remembered. My Mom always had “the Story of O” lying around the house (it was on the bookshelf in the guestroom). And I read part of it when I was like 11 or 12. I got board after about 6 chapters and put it down. I asked her about it and she just said that it probably would be boring to someone my age and that “thats just some peoples thing”. And truthfully I never really thought about the book or the subject matter of it after that. No harm done. I read a lot as a child, I’m proud to say I read all of Dune when I was in the 6th grade (which remindes me I need to jump into that Dune discussion). But, strangely enough school is the thing that gets in the way of my reading most of the time these days.

#32

if this discussion goes on much longer my posts are going to end up being a 20 page essay.

#33

Let’s see, I started this thread when I had something like 5 posts to my credit.

It is now a monster.
I kinda feel like a Cylon (am I a Cylon!)

(yep, that’s all I have to say. WHY AREN’T I ASLEEP!)

#34

It’s like the energizer bunny becuase there are, for the most part, fairly logical people going back and forth. There’s a lot of “respectful disagreement” going on which is rare on the internet.

That said, I want to keep a light on the difference between “government banning” and “community choice”. To my knowledge, no book has been banned by the US government as in it cannot be bought or sold within the US. With the introduction of Amazon.com to the book world, really how DO you ban a book these days?

One odd little thought I had was in relation to the “clearly inappropriate” vs “questionable” discussion. It’s said that Oscar Wilde was at a party and asked a woman “Would you sleep with me for a million dollars”. “Of course!” the woman responded. Nodding, Wilde reached into his pocket and pulled out a five dollar bill. “How about for just 5 then?” Aghast the woman stepped back. “For five dollars? What sort of woman do you think I am?” Wilde grinned. “Madam, we have already determined what kind of woman you are. Currently we are haggling over price.”

Which gets to the idea that really if we’re willing to say that public libraries (funded by local tax pay dollars and administered to by either elected officials or their appointies) can elect to leave out some books (censor is such a bad word) which are clearly inappropriate, then some legitimate if questionable books are going to go with them.

The other question is this: What one person gets their wish? The one who asks that a book be removed from the shelf, or the one that insists it be added? Really, that is the debate to be had. Is my singular desire to take “The Golden Compass” off the shelf enough to have it removed, or is my singular desire to add “The Complete Writings of the Marquis de Sade” enough to add it? We can debate back and forth on community standards and such, but when it settles down unless we want to do an anual election for book purchases then someone has to be the deciding vote either to add or remove.

This is of course a tricky subject because we are all steeped in a liberal tradition, but at the same time believe that pure freedom to the extreme of anarchy is a dangerous thing. Finding the middle ground (as a general concept) is the challenge of being American.

Rorlins

#35

I agree. But disagree slightly with the middle part. Overall yes, slightly no…and Sula rocks.

#36

Frankly, I think the government, be it local, state or federal, should stay out of telling us, the people, what we can and cannot read/watch/listen to/look at. Regulation of certain aspects of media availability, such as times when materials that may be inappropriate for children under a certain age may air on television or radio, is a GOOD thing (just as, I would argue, regulation of industry is a GOOD thing. But that’s a topic for another argument). To make works of art entirely unavailable because a particularly vocal portion of the population finds them unacceptable is, well, unacceptable in my view.

Ultimately, though, I think people are smart about these things and exert the right amount of influence on their local institutions like schools and libraries to enforce limits and regulations on what sorts of materials will be available to students of a certain age. Vigilance has tended to work in this country for over 200 years now, and though I’ve had doubts from time to time as to whether it’s working these days, I am optimistic that the people ultimately make the correct choices for their communities…

…so long as they don’t allow themselves to be ruled by fear.

#37

God don’t they ever get tired of trying this shit.

Well I would be more concerned but the truth is the moment someone told me I shouldn’t read something, well I went out of my way to do exactly that.

Every time they try this, and they fail.

Just as side note I’ve only ever been a few fights in my life and started only one. When someone burned a book, and this isn’t so different.

#38

It should be noted though, that in the USA, there have never been any goverment mandated book burnings, nor has any book be “banned” by the goverment.

This “sh_t” refers to libraries deciding that certain books have questionable enough content to keep from stocking that specific book. It usually is in reaction to a group saying that a certain book does not fit their community standards or the desire “protect” children from this book.

I don’t know why this is an important distinction to me, but it just is. Even “banned” books are still available to any adult willing to go out and buy them. Any “Banned book” can be read by any child whose parent hands it to them. Legally forbiding children from reading, say Harry Potter, is not something that (to my knowledge) has ever happened in this country.

Rorlins

#39

While true that the feds haven’t banned anything, local governments are famous for it (I’m looking at you-city of Boston.)
A book doesn’t have to be banned for local officials to be assholes about it. Where I grew up, the chief of police was so extremly anti-role-playing games that he would confiscate gaming stuff from teens for being "Satanic’ and had much of the town convinced that he was right.
And they still wonder why all the kids like to move out of town at first chance.

As a side note, or disclosure, or something. My mom was the librarian at the Catholic school (1-8, then became K-6) for years and never removed a book due to pressure. Her job was to get books for the school, and make sure books checked out where age-appropriate. She never had any problems (that I know of) and many books in the library were ones that had been challenged in various places (the Lord of the Rings series, Mark Twain’s stuff, “Are you there God, I’ts me Margret”, etc)

I had a point I trying to get to that ended in a job with Adama saying “do your job” to librarians, but I just looked at the time and have to be somewhere…

#40

I know and I’m sorry if came off as harsh, but this has been a very real issue for me in my life, I realize we all have to make sure as much as we can as parents to keep our children from inappropriate Material.

I also know the what is appropriate is a completely subjective matter, What I consider appropriate, and what others deem appropriate, could and does vary greatly.

My issue comes with the Who besides parents decide what is appropriate and over a great deal of modern history, this has been and will continue to be used to continue what I see as intolerance. I believe rightly or wrongly That it’s the responsibly of the parents and guardian’s to decide this, on a case by case basis, not for any official, local or otherwise.

And although you are correct These book could be bought, there availability to the pourer, and I’ll admit when I was growing up the Library was the only way fro me to read new books, still withholds these books a great deal of people, and in a general discourages people from buying them, but I do concede your point.

I was raised catholic, there was and is a very strong connection to God, and although my faith, and beliefs has changed as I grown up I would not and very few of my Religious teachers, Priests, nuns, would of held a bible back from me, they would want me to read it and it’s a valuable book, there a many important lessons in it to understand, but it is also filled with violence, and many inappropriate materials for children and yet no one would have in my youth stopped me from reading it, and nor would my local civil library, but if its appropriate by community standards, than most if not all these books are the same.

IN the end it should be up to the parent.

Again I get kind of worked up over this so I didn’t mean to be rude just passionate, about this.