Hmmm, I had not tried looking on the other side of Riker’s behavior before, I have always just sided with him because I felt he represented my point of view. Interesting…
Agreed, the Admiral was the biggest schmuck of the story.
Agreed, Shooter. I totally agree that the crew didn’t handle things as well as the could have or should have. My objections totally lie in terms of seeing Jellico as a good leader. He’s a mediocre to poor leader and deserves to be recognized as such.
But the crew’s best chance for survival lies in working with the leader they’ve got–even if he’s an asshat.
I doubt anyone will disagree that ST Admirals are almost universally douches. I suspect that’s really because it’s just so easy plot-wise to use “an admiral” to push tension into episodes. But hey, it sure does happen a lot. 
I know the reason I didn’t discuss your main point (re: bridge seating) is that it just made a lot of sense and was well-made. The Jellico part caught me short because I’ve just been on the receiving end of too much “Jellico’s great because leading is all about giving orders” emails, so I’m a little sensitive to it. That’s just painfully wrong. But I suspect some of those emailers’ objections were like yours–more related to the foolishness of the crew’s reaction. Wish they’d have said that.
Bottom line: Put a poor leader in charge of a crew that isn’t disciplined enough to respond well, and you’re likely to lose them/get their asses handed to them. Seems like the Entrrprise was damn lucky they didn’t end up dead in the middle of a war they caused.
I was just reminding how to pronounce his name. It’s official GWC cannon. 
And remember the BIGGEST dick in these two episodes. Vice Admiral Alynna Nechayev. She is the one who put Jellico in command knowing what his command style was. She was the one who orchestrated the events Jellico had to carry out and she was the one who threw the Enterprise into the mix without fleet backup. In the end I have to blame her the most for Jellico’s personal failures.
That goes without saying.
EDIT: Holy crap, I’m an Alpaca Prime! Sweet!
Okay, maybe I’m just spit-balling here, but I thought up a couple of other points on this topic. First, I realize Starfleet’s cupboard was pretty bare following the engagement with the Borg just over two years prior. Specifically, the battle at Wolf 359 pretty much decimated most of the fleet. So experienced Starfleet captains and ships were definitely at a premium, thus the rise of the Cardassian aggression in the first place, right?
So as much as it pains me to say, maybe Admiral Nechayev was just doing the best with what she had. Although why she didn’t just promote Riker to the position still baffles me. Perhaps the Admiral was correct since Riker certainly didn’t help his case for Enterprise Captain by constantly turning down command opportunities and his reaction on how to creatively deal with Jellico.
Now, unto Jellico. I still don’t think he was a complete asshat. He was genuinely trying to either avert a major conflict with the Cardassians or get ready to fight with everything he had at his disposal. The orders he was giving were attempting to push the Enterprise and its crew beyond what they thought they were capable of. That I don’t have a problem with.
I still don’t have an argument (and never will) to defend Jellico’s ability to deal with the crew as people. This was his major failing for all the reasons I cited in my previous post. The revolting crew certainly didn’t help matters because they played right into his command weakness. But for all of that Jellico did compromise when it mattered most, he came to Riker and had to ask for him to pilot the shuttle. That was a major deal for Jellico’s personality. Even then, I acknowledge Jellico took a shot at Riker when he should have just kept his mouth shut.
So yes, I agree that Jellico was a mediocre leader at best, but disagree that he was a complete asshat. Mostly an asshat? You might have me there, but not complete asshat.
And Chuck, I’d have to agree completely with your Bottom Line.
~Shooter out
For me, the only allure of the Matrix is the Woman in Red. Other than that I’m all-in with Tron. Now, if you stick the Matrix Woman in Red into the Tron grid? My circuits would be sure to overload in a nano-cycle. :groucho:
~Shooter Out
This whole Jellico discussion brought up a funny parallel. I’m currently re-watching The Office on my lunch breaks and while playing Minecraft. In Season 5, Idris Elba was brought in as Charles Miner (replacing “fired-guy” Ryan as VP.) Charles reminds me a lot of Jellico. If you replace Michael with Picard, Jim with Riker and Dwight with Data, it all matches up pretty well. Michael leaves, Charles starts running the office. He doesn’t like Jim so pretty much ignores him, but appreciates Dwight’s work ethic and makes him his second.
When I first saw this episode, I couldn’t stand Charles. I think he suffers from the fact that we have been watching this show for five years. The staff of Dunder Mifflin are our protagonists. We understand what they do and how they work together. Despite such an easy going atmosphere (or maybe because of it), the Scranton branch is the most successful of all of the company’s branches. This outsider comes in, shakes things up, and acts like a jerk to the main characters. He eventually gets his “due” and things go back to status quo.
Watching it again, I felt a little sorry for him. He was a straight-laced no-nonsense manager who came in and tried to fix what he saw as problems. Jim was wearing a tux that day and when asked why, he tells his new boss that Dwight sent out a memo about professionalism in the work place and Jim thought it was a good way to mess with him. From his view, Jim looks like a loser. The office looks haphazardly run and he tries to put it in order.
Jellico arrives, clashes with Picard who leaves (for his mission), dislikes Riker because he sees him a coaster (guy who has turned down command to keep his cushy XO job on the flagship and guy who didn’t implement an order because he thought it’d upset the crew), replaces him with Data (who is about a no-nonsense as you can get when he doesn’t have his emotion chip in) and then procedes to try to put the Enterprise in order for its upcoming mission.
Again, he clashes with our protagonists. These are characters that we’ve been through hell with for years and have come to know and love them. We side with them automatically and give them the benefit of the doubt, even when they behave wrongly. Why? They’re the heroes. Jellico is the conflict, the obstacle that the plot has placed before them and he must be overcome. In the end, he gets his “due” (when Riker has his smug “ask me” moment and tells him off about his commanding style) and things go back to status quo.
Do I think people have a right to not like Jellico? Sure. But I also can’t buy the complete asshat theory. Despite evidence to the contrary (in other episodes with other captains), you do not get that fourth pip in a box of Cracker Jacks. Jellico was an effective commander who rose to his position through previous merits. He was brought in for this job specifically because of his previous experience with Cardassians. While he didn’t need to be so harsh and it did hurt his ability to command, the crew’s reponsibility was to implement his commands, adjust to his way of doing things, and get the job done. They’re in Starfleet for god’s sake, this isn’t summer camp where you can whine and complain because you don’t like the activities. I agree that he was a jerk. He definitely wasn’t the right captain for the crew he was given.
In the end, I think I like him for two primary reasons:
One, he was played by Ronny Cox. He was Dick Jones from Robocop. “I had to kill Bob Norton because he made a mistake …” He was Cohagen from Total Recall. I fondly remembered him as Bogomil from Beverly Hills Cop and as the National Guard commander from Taps. And in the shlock that was Captain America (1990), he was the one cool thing. A president who tries to kill himself so that his terrorist captors can’t use him to hurt America. I always smile when I see Ronny Cox in anything and am sad that I don’t see him as often anymore.
Two, he was a great plot device. His character shook things up. He made us think about the Enterprise and it’s crew in ways we hadn’t before. They are, despite their peaceful exploratory mission, a military vessel. At anytime crew can change and that includes the captain. Each of them are subject to the orders of their superiors, even if they (or we) do not agree with those orders or like those superiors. For a brief time, we saw the Enterprise in the hands of an outsider and it freaked us out. Not some god-like entity who stole it, not an enemy who took it over, but someone with legitimate authority to act like a jerk to our heroes. We got to see a different kind of fight and in the end, the heroes still “won.”
So, while I’ll agree with Jellico’s a jerk, I can’t agree with total douche or asshat. Personally, I thought he was kind of badass, but I like that command style in small doses. It’s part of what I liked about Adama, that sometimes we’d see the whole “just shup up and do it, I’m the commander” attitude. Sometimes, a commander has to do that. I wouldn’t want to serve under him either and I wouldn’t want to watch a show with a jerk commander for five or more seasons, but for one two-part episode … I loved it. I’ll always remember Jellico fondly.
I choose Mal hands down. The women in any Whedon-verse and particularly in Firefly are some of the best characters I’ve ever seen. It would be worth the price of admission just to spend time with them, and hopefully be able to do a little more if you know what I mean.
I’ll be in my bunk…
~Shooter Out
Blue twilek everytime
Bounty Hunter. Jetpack and wild mob parties with women dancing in gold bikinis.
~Shooter Out
When I bring it, there ain’t no song needed. Momma’s got move to grove.
~Shooter Out
It’s an alternate Universe tasha Yar. Trailer below (it’s totally SFW)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VkZwV1v5ZE
and it looks…pretty good actually
I for one have always loved the layout of the Enterprise-D. I don’t get the whole “committee” idea. Picard doesn’t look for approval when he gets input from the crew, he is looking for the best idea or possible solution for the given situation. I think the layout of the bridge is far less critical then where it’s located on the ship. Not to mention the fact that there is only a thin piece of transparent aluminum? protecting them from the vacuum of space and enemy fire. :oops: (Shields only last so long)
I gotta say that I love it when Chuck and Sean talk about Leadership. I agree wholeheartedly with their opinions and it’s refreshing because so many people out there just don’t get it. I also really enjoy Shooter opinion on these subjects because his military experience give a perspective different then the majority of ours. IMO - when Chuck and Sean talk about leadership they are describing what makes for the ideal leader. It feels like they focus more time on what makes characters poor leaders rather then good. This may be why there are so many e-mails, of which I wish they would have posted on the forum so we could all discuss. It’s easy to just think of Jellico as an asshat but after reading the previous posts I went back and re-watched Chains of Command focusing on each persons perspective.
To me, the idea of any Captain in Starfleet being a fundamentally poor leader goes against what Star Trek is. We have no idea what Admiral Nechayev told Jellico when she gave him orders. I always got the impression that he knew this assignment would be temporary (unless things went much worse then they did). Riker wouldn’t have been able to handle the situation with the Cardassians as well.
Well said! I bet if we asked the crew of the Kairo, they would speak as highly of him as the TNGers do about Picard. I also got the feeling that Jellico was taking the opportunity to prove to Starfleet how good a job he could do. (He did say how special the opportunity to command a Galaxy class ship was) If the situation had been different I am sure the changeover would have been much different.
I would submit that if Jellico had not have been there, Picard would never have been returned safely. They also wouldn’t have found the Cardassian fleet and prevented the attack. If Riker had been in charge they would probably mount a rescue mission which may have started a war. If Jellico was really such a poor leader he would not have swallowed his pride enough to ask for help. I’m not saying he’s great but he was up against the clock. There are also several scenes of him actually being personable and showing a softer side to his personality. I guess it also depends on the quality of leader one is using as comparison. Besides, one can’t be an asshat keeping their children’s pictures on the wall. :rolleyes:
This movie is going to make a hundred million dollars.
Aside from Yar’s awful wig… that. was. frakking. awesome. When is this being released?
Trish
Wow, this is going to give having a Frak party a whole new meaning. :groucho:
I want to watch this right frakkin now!
Roaming Gang driving a 1965 Pontiac GTO with extra fuel tanks.
~Shooter Out
It’s available May 5th
Not to dole out the TMI, but I never thought I’d want to watch a porn by fast-forwarding through the sex scenes to get to the plot. Sure the acting looks typically bad, but the sets seem decent, the story kind of interesting and the effects pretty damn good. This is just … weird.
I find the lack of Kardashians…opps…I mean…Cardassian…disturbing. :groucho: